The PURPOSE-DRIVEN Church

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Griffdog, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. Griffdog

    Griffdog
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    Hey all,

    Just reading "The Purpose Driven Life" from Rick Warren, and wanted to get the pulse of Baptists here on what they think of the philosophy of Saddleback. While it isn't necessarily anything new, I think it is particularly effective to focus on goals, then plan how to get there.

    Josh
     
  2. SaggyWoman

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    I like it.
     
  3. neal4christ

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    I am currently reading "The Purpose Driven Church", so I will let you know later. I like what I see so far.

    Neal
     
  4. Deacon

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    Some really great ideas are found in its pages! My church has focused upon serving and empowering the individual to serve the Lord to thier full postential. I've passed the book on to many others.
     
  5. Molly

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    The purposes are okay,(These have been around forever)the organizational part is okay,but I have major concerns with the seeker sensitive philosophy of making the church appealing with its style,music,programs,casualness instead of focusing on the word.

    If you'd like to read more,see the thread under fundamental baptist and read the concerns there. [​IMG]
     
  6. Daniel David

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    Warren is a classic example of a teacher of easy-believism. He might understand correct purposes, but his philosophy of accomplishing them will be extremely weak if not totally wrong.
     
  7. All about Grace

    All about Grace
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    Hello Preach and Molly!

    Griffdog: You are going to be much better off to go to the Fundamentalist Forum thread below and see the lengthy discussion there. You will quickly learn that Preach and Molly have accusations they cannot prove or support. ;)
     
  8. Daniel David

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    Well, no. We just don't defend easy-believism and pretend God is pleased with worldliness.
     
  9. Siegfried

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    I like a lot of Warren said, so don't get me wrong.

    I do have a problem with the philosophy of establishing goals, then figuring out how to get there. We need to figure out what Scripture says, and let it tell us what our goals are AND how to get there.

    Some might say that Warren has based his goals (and maybe even his methods) on Scripture. I disagree.

    The one phrase that stuck out to me from his book was, "We should never criticize a method that God is blessing." (Sorry, I failed to write down the page number.)

    How do we objectively identify the presence of God's blessing? Converts? Cash flow? Buildings? Level of excitement? If those are the critera, then the Mormons, Pentecostals, Catholics, Charismatics, and Muslims are really being blessed by God.

    The only objective standard is the truth of the Word. You can argue whether Warren's methods match the Word or not, but his philosophy of ministry is unbiblical, plain and simple. That quote demonstrates it.
     
  10. Don

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    Actually, that phrase and your criticism of it is quite poignant.

    For we see around us each and every day people who are "being blessed," but refuse Christ.

    My critique of the book is that it's based mostly off of Total Quality Management principles, with scriptural background, whether Warren realizes it or not; i.e., it's a TQM book for Christian managers. There are many times, however, when the TQM principles aren't taken far enough, and tend to leave out "buy-in" and other methods.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Since most churches couldn't state their purpose if you paid them, I think the book meets a perceived need of many churches.

    I dislike Warren's weak, wishy-washy doctrinal statement and his emphasis on "success" in the eyes of the world. :eek:

    AND HEY SON, WHY DIDN'T YOU PHONE AND ASK ME instead of these strangers on the BB?????? :rolleyes:
     
  12. TomVols

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    The book is commendable since most churches have long forgotten what their reason for existing is, as Dr. Bob pointed out. Warren does argue for church health over church growth. And I have no doubt that people are being reached. The book should be read. Some of my reformed brethren have said that Warren seems to have borrowed a lot from Spurgeon's The Soul Winner! Still, Warren does buy into the whole success=God's blessing equation, which is not Scriptural at all. But I admit I'd take Warren over Bill Hybels any day. So read the book and spit out the bones while you digest the meat you find.
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Don't you mean SPAM?
     
  14. BroChris

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    I read the book several years ago, so I am probably a little shakey on its details...

    I have a favorable impression of the book. I'm in Bible college right now, and none of my professors have taught me the purposes of the church. They mostly focus on the preaching of the Word. While this is very important, it is also important to understand what the church as a whole is supposed to do. Warren's book is the only one that I've seen that explains those things. There may be better books out there on the same subject, but I don't know of them.
     
  15. Daniel David

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    Ashamed of the Gospel by Dr. John MacArthur would be a good one for you to read.

    Am I saying that Warren is ashamed of the gospel? No. I don't think he knows what it is. If you think I am being critical, join in on the discussion in the Fundy forum regarding his statement on man's condition.
     
  16. Molly

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    I know of a book that is also good. My husband has read it: Doing God's Business God's Way by Dr. George Zemek. He taught at Master's seminary for a while. It is really good,(my husband tells me),but it was over my head in some places so I gave up! [​IMG]

    Ashamed of the Gospel is one of the books that has helped us so much discern what all is out there in churches and know what to stay away from. It helped us tremendously!
     
  17. Aaron

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    Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    Rick Warren's philosophy has a form of godliness, but it denies the power thereof. It substitutes worldly attractions for the power of the Spirit.
     
  18. Siegfried

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    I'd take Warren over Hybels, too. I would also rather eat steamed cabbage than brussels sprouts.

    Warren is like buffalo wings. It tastes good, and there is some meat, but there's a whole lot more skin and bones.

    I'm gettin' hungry. When's lunch?
     
  19. Griffdog

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    Interesting.

    I think the five biblical purposes, which have been around forever, are central to the success of the church. We've seen a dramatic increase in our services, decisions, attendance - even the length of preaching time! The message has NEVER been compromised, in fact it has been strengthened. I think that one of the greatest advantages is that is focuses your efforts - almost encouraging you to be more productive.

    But of course, I lack a pastoral degree and have a BS in Business Management which perhaps is one of the reasons that these books click so well with me. Here's the purposes we've adopted for the Volinia Student Ministry:

    High School / Junior High Ministry
    STRETCH: Evangelism, telling others about Christ
    SET: Fellowship, connections with other believers
    STRENGTH: Discipleship, Bible instruction
    SINK: Ministry, using our gifts to serve
    SHINE: Worship, our magnification of God

    College Ministry
    PURPOSE: Evangelism, telling others about Christ
    PLACE: Fellowship, connections with other believers
    PERSEVERANCE: Discipleship, Bible instruction
    PASSION: Ministry, using our gifts to serve
    PROMISE: Worship, our magnification of God

    Thoughts!?

    Josh
     
  20. Don

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    Josh, I've been asking if others recognized the Total Quality Management principles in Warren's book. Care to give your thoughts on that one?

    I think every pastor (not preacher, but pastor) should have a few management courses under their belts. I've been going over the curriculum for the master's degree that I'm playing around with, and very few classes deal with management principles.

    In that regard, Warren's book stands out. On the other hand, though, Warren misses a few things in his book, like making sure that the people have "buy in." He either skips lightly over this principle, or skips it altogether.

    The problem people have with Warren's book is the apparent focus on getting people to the church (i.e., getting the cows to the feeding trough rather than worrying about what to feed them).
     

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