The Questionable Pretrib Rapture - Part 2

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Tim too, Sep 26, 2003.

  1. Tim too

    Tim too
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    This discussion has went on for many days, yet there have been some latecomers to it. If you wish to biblically dismiss these problems or if you think the problems are valid welcome to the discussion. If you are tired of the wrangling then let this thread die.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim


    Here are some of the issues that caused me to question my belief in a pre-trib rapture.

    1. There is a problem with the concept of wrath vs. tribulation. One of the key tenets of the pre-trib position is that God did not appoint the church to suffer wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9) This is true the church is not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. There is a difference in God’s wrath and the Biblical concept of tribulation. Wrath is from God on disobedient men and tribulation is what the church suffers at the hands of the world. Jesus said that in this world we would have tribulation. (John 16:33) Notice that in Revelation the wrath of God is not poured out until after the tribulation, after the sixth seal is broken. (Revelation 6:15-17, Matt 24:29)

    2. Signs in the heavens. There are two major signs that accompany the return of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said He would send His angels into the four corners of the world to gather His elect. (Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-28, Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

    3. The phrase Paul uses to describe our being gathered to Christ is “the day of the Lord.” (1 Cor 5:4, 2 Cor 1:14, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Thes 2:2-3 This day is tied in scripture to the signs that appear in the heavens. (Isai 13:6-10, Joel 2:31, Zeph 1:14-15, Acts 2:20, 2 Peter 3:10) There is no mention of the word rapture in the Bible but there is the day of the Lord.

    4. There are a couple of problems with the pretrib interpretation of 2 Thes 2:1-12. First, Paul says that we will not even be gathered to the Lord until the great apostasy comes and the Antichrist is revealed. According to the pretrib view we are not going to be here when the anti-christ is revealed because his appearing is in the middle of the 7 years of the tribulation. If the pretrib view of the Holy Spirit being restrainer in this passage is correct and the restrainer is removed when the church is raptured who is going to draw all of those people who are saved out of the tribulation? This passage alone is enough to cause someone to have serious questions about the pretrib rapture.

    5. Problems with numbers. The pretrib view of the rapture says that the raptured church is shown in Revelation 5:8-14. There is a problem with the numbers here. In verse 11 there is given a number for those are worshipping, ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands and thousands. However, the number of those saved out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7:9-14 is so big that no one is able to number it. So essentially, 10,000 X 10,000 = 100,000,000 plus thousands and thousands from the time Christ went back to the Father’s right hand until the rapture, but then in three and half years more people come to Christ than can be numbered. It doesn’t add up.

    6. Problem with the names in the Revelation 5:8-14 passage. This passage calls the 10,000 X 10,000 and thousands and thousands “angels.” We are not angels. This cannot be the church. However, the innumerable group of people that are worshipping the Lamb in Revelation 7:9-14 are called the “the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” This great number of people is definitely the church.

    7. The problem with the calls to persevere in Revelation. (Rev 13:10, Rev 14:12) Both of the references listed are given after describing the antichrist and the mark. Why would there be such warnings if we were not going to be here?


    Finally, which position would be most to Satan’s advantage? If the rapture is true then there is no damage done by believing otherwise. If you are a Christian you are still going to be raptured. However if the rapture is not true there is real danger. Believers are not going to be looking the antichrist or the mark. They could be deceived into taking the mark. Those who take the mark are under the same judgment as unbelievers.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    Tim too: 2. Signs in the heavens. There are two major signs that accompany
    the return of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said He would send
    His angels into the four corners of the world to gather
    His elect. (Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-28,
    Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

    This seems like a really strange collection of verses.
    Why one would abandon the Biblical Pretribulation Rapture position
    over such a collection of beats me. But i've seen weirder stuff :(
    Did you know that Acts 2:20-21 is the fulfillment of the
    prophecy of Joel 2:31? How do you relate already fulfilled prophecy
    to yet to be fulfilled prophecy? Or are you one of those
    preterists who think nearly all the New Testament prophecy has
    already been fulfilled?

    Gernerally in the Old Testament, they see the coming of Messiah
    as a ONE TIME event. But now we know that it is a two time event:
    1) as a babe in a manger to die on a cross (33 years)
    2) as Savior, Lord and King (7 years)

    But some would say that we aught to limit God to one each
    24-hour day in which He will do all His coming.
    The Holy Bible teaches a two prong second event:
    2a) come as Savior
    2b) come as Lord and King.
    These events are one prophetic day apart (7 earth years).

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    Or are you one of those preterists who think nearly all the New Testament prophecy has already been fulfilled?

    You make it sound so "dirty". [​IMG]
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    My bad. :( I rephrase:
    Or are you one of those clean preterists
    who think nearly all the New Testament
    prophecy has already been fulfilled?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Someone said that Matthew 24:15-31 matches
    with Revelation 6:1-7:17 (well, except the Lord's
    Mount Olivet Discourse doesn't mention
    the 144,000).

    To me this smacks of the 7-cycles of Revelation.
    I beleive Revelation to be largely linear -
    from start to finish with but a few summaries
    and flashbacks and flashforwards. But some
    beleive that there are 7-cycles in Revelation,
    that is, the Tribualtion and Second Coming are
    told 7 times, 7 different ways. Here is one
    of those 7-cycle schems (i don't believe a word
    of it):

    Cycle 1. Revelation 6:1-8:1
    Cycle 2. Revelation 8:65-10:7
    Cycle 3. Revelation 11
    Cycle 4. Revelation 12-14
    Cycle 5. Revelation 16
    Cycle 6. Revelation 17-19
    Cycle 7. Revelation 20-22

    I believe Revelation 4-19 speaks of the
    Tribulation Period; Revelation 20-22
    speaks of after the Tribulation Period.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Trotter

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    LET IT DIE
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God.

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque

    [​IMG]
     
  8. npetreley

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    I love it, Ed. Let's see, I think one could sum up your view as containing seven years of tribulation, six resurrections, five judgements, four types of wrath, three secret raptures, two visible comings and a partridge in a pear tree. ;)
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Actually it is more like: seven years of tribulation,
    six resurrections, five judgements,
    four types of wrath, three secret raptures,
    two visible comings and
    a Savior hung in a tree.
     
  10. npetreley

    npetreley
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    What? There's only one crucifixion in your theology? ;)
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Actually the Romans crucified millions
    of people. But only one of them
    came back from the dead: One Jesus BenJoseph
    of Nazareth. Jesus is my
    one and only Lord and Savior! [​IMG]
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The last one to post wins -- right?

    [​IMG]
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Well, at least you're honest about your motives.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I looked in the back of the book --
    God Wins!!! [​IMG]
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    That was your own logical to given 5 different types of tribulations.

    The Bible does not support your logical.

    There is no difference between 'tribulation' and 'great tribulation' of Matt 24:21. Both are same definition.

    The Bible never promise us that we will escapse from tribulions and persecutions.

    Early Church already suffer many terrible persecutions under Rome. Many Christians were thrown into Colossuem, eaten by wild beasts to death. Thousands of Christians were beheaded.

    Thousands of Christians were persecute by Catholics during Spnish Inquision era.

    Throughout many centuries, many Christians have been persecuted for thier faith.

    Are we better than them?

    Why does God allow His Bride having suffer persecutions throughout centuries even to present and will be continue future till Christ comes?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

    [ September 29, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: DeafPosttrib ]
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    At Part One, you say:

    Please show us where verse to support your logical.

    You say,

    Rev. 4:1 does not mentioned on gathering together, descend of Jesus Christ, and the coming of Christ. Nothing at all.

    Rev. 4:1 speaks of John himself experince in his own VISION - revelation. Do nothing with the gathering together of the saints or Church.

    You say,

    Please show us where verse support your logical.

    The Bible does not support your logical.

    Matt 24:29-31 tell us, we as ELECT shall be gathering together immediately AFTER tribulation.

    Also, throughout the book of Revelation never saying all saints are ONLY JEWS. The book of Revelation was given message to the CHURCHES, that all things must come to pass - Rev. 22:16.

    Church is both Jews and Gentiles Believers.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    Also, please show us WHERE a verse saying the gathering together of the saints wil be occur 3 1/2 o 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent???
     
  18. npetreley

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    There is no such verse. The pre-trib rapture lives only in the imagination of those who add fiction and poetry to scripture in order to arrive at that conclusion. The pre-trib analysis always sounds like: "You have to ignore the plain meaning of the text, forget about the chronology, rearrange the events, turn the Bible sideways, take every seventh letter, take the numeric value of the letter, add 20 and transpose it into Hebrew, and then it spells out the pre-trib rapture for everyone to see!" ;)

    One of my favorite fanciful arguments is that the word "church" does not appear in Revelation after chapter 4, which "means" the church will not be present in the rest of the prophecy described in Revelation. I notice the words "porterhouse steak" aren't mentioned anywhere in Revelation at all. I guess that means all porterhouse steaks will be raptured before ANY of the events in Revelation occur. I sure hope I'm raptured along with those porterhouse steaks, because I love 'em.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    The word for today is EXTRAPOLATE

    extrapolate - 1. Statistics to estimate
    or infer (a value, quanity, etc. beyond the
    known range) on the basis of certain variables
    within the know range, from which the estimated value
    is assumed to follow.
    2. To arrive at (conclusions or results) by
    hypothesizing consequences on the basis of (known facts
    or observations)

    Example: "Who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?"
    The Bible mentions a Millennia, a physical kingdom
    of Christ, and events prior to and after the
    Millennium. The Bible does not directly answer this
    question. However, it can be deduced. I think the
    secret is in Matthew 25:31-46: the sheep and goat judgement.
    I belive that Jesus, after the Tribulation Period
    but before the MK = Millennial Kingdom, is set up
    will judge the surviving nations according to how they
    treated the Israeli among them. The goat nations
    will "go to hell, do not pass go"; the sheep nations
    will pouplate the MK. But all the details are outside
    the envelope of the Bible, i.e. the details are
    extrapolated. So i can sit around comparing my
    hypothesizing with the hypothesizing of other servants
    of Jesus.

    Quite frankly though, if someone does not believe the
    MK is to be physical (not spiritual) reality,
    they cannot comprehend my extrapolation.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: Ed, ...
    That was your own logical to given 5 different types of tribulations.
    The Bible does not support your logical."

    Your opinion is noted (again). Someday you will
    understand my occasional snit when you say things
    like that against the summary of 35 years of my life.

    [​IMG]
     

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