The Rapture: History and Influence in America

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, Apr 14, 2011.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would say that those who put that video together as well as the speaker has an agenda and as with many who have an agenda they do not care if what they say is accurate or biblical.
    While some of what he said was accurate so was some not correct. It was clear he deliberately magnified some things and miss-represented others. An example is he claimed that those who hold to what he was discrediting teach a "secret rapture." Those are his words, not the words of those who hold to the doctrine he is against. That is just one example of several.
    The biggest problem is that while he was seeking to dispute a belief he offered nothing in its place, nor did he show why his claim by using scriptures makes those who hold to the rapture as incorrect except to say or hint that they are incorrect. So I would say that it is a poorly done presentation with a slant to disprove and no evidence to prove his side.

    I would not recommend this video as it has no substance and actually makes false accusations. If the video did a presentation on why he believes what he does and backs it up with scripture then it would be different, but this is nothing but a witch hunt with a mix of truth and error.
     
    #2 freeatlast, Apr 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2011
  3. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    What a strange response. You claim the video is an agenda driven "witch hunt" with no support for its claims and fails to offer alternative viewpoints. But then you fail to support your claims and appear to have an agenda yourself. :)

    Also, lots of folks have used the term 'secret rapture' to describe the pretribulational view. Lloyd-Jones, for example, in "The Sovereign Spirit" calls it just that.
     
    #3 Siberian, Apr 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2011
  4. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    0
    It starts out like a Michael Moore or Al Gore film. A good movie doesn't make for correct theology. Anyone who believes the kingdom of God will occur on this earth in this lifetime(as he purports) hasn't studied the gospels. Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." He also seems to bounce around the theological landscape instead of sticking to the topic.
     
    #4 michael-acts17:11, Apr 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2011
  5. Tater77

    Tater77
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2009
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    0
    He spoke the truth in the video. Rapture theology is less than 200 years old and it all goes back to the 1800s. And its scary that what I was taught as a child is almost verbatim to the CI Scofield reference Bible, so that part struck home.
     
  6. HAMel

    HAMel
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,048
    Likes Received:
    83
    Rapture theology is less than 200 years old and it all goes back to the 1800s.

    May I ask what you mean by "Rapture Theology"? I'm just curious.
     
  7. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know nothing about Loyd Jones, but I do know that I have never heard any person who believes in the rapture call it a secret rapture. if there are those who do it is very rare. Those who do not believe in it teach it to be a secret rapture, but that is not what the video said so I stand on what I said about the video. He made accusations using false statements and never once used any scriptural evidence to make his case. Everything what hear-say and personal opinion. it was not a good presentation or one that could be believed.
     
  8. Old Union Brother

    Old Union Brother
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    0
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just to clarify. The OP question was not about a debate of the timing of the rapture. In my responses I was not making any claim as to the validity of the timing of the rapture. I was simply answering the question of the OP which is this;
    "What do you think of the video and its presentation on dispensationalism"

    The wording of the question seeks an answer to the ability of the video to properly present the argument of the one making a claim. The question was not asking if others agreed with his claim, just if he presented it well or not. My answer was and is accurate as to what I listened to. It was a bad presentation. This person may very well be speaking the truth in principle. I was not responding to that issue. I was simply pointing out that he did a very poor job of making his point. He basically spoke untruths and exaggerated by using terms that are incorrect towards those who hold an opposing view. He also never gave any biblical reasoning to believe his view. All he did was say the other side is wrong and sought to prove it with undocumented accusations supposedly using quotes of others but he never gave any proof the quotes were theirs or accurate. No documantation! So that is why I responded like I did and made this statement;
    " I would not recommend this video as it has no substance and actually makes false accusations. If the video did a presentation on why he believes what he does and backs it up with scripture then it would be different, but this is nothing but a witch hunt with a mix of truth and error."

    By the way I stand on that statement as I have now listened to it twice and the video presentation was and is what I stated, poorly done as to proving what was said as accurate except for those who just believe this person at face value. If this man wants to prove his position then do it with a step by step scriptural lay out of the times and seasons he is speaking about with careful explanation in every step instead of open ended statements without substance that proves nothing.
     
    #9 freeatlast, Apr 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2011
  10. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, the rapture was the original and historically accurate position of the early church, and did not change for nearly 450 after pentacost. However the initial position was POST-Trib rapture. It is also noted that the word 'rapture' was not used back them, and it is known that the term rapture is derived from the Latin word (from the Latin Vulgate) for rapture.. which is the word for "catching away".

    The 'PRE-trib' rapture is only about 200 years years old, much like the fairly new Covenant Theology which is only about 100 years or so older
     
    #10 Allan, Apr 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2011
  11. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0

    Actually he gave specific examples of what he had a problem with. Not sure how you came to this conclusion. Then you go on to address what he used to support his claim with a rebuttal.
     
  12. Tater77

    Tater77
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2009
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    0
    The early church fathers had a mix of views concerning the end times. And differing views have filtered down through the past two thousand years. But I need to do more research on the early churches stand.

    But everything you have been taught about the pre-trib rapture of the church and end time scenarios are less than 200 years old.
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    Do you have any sources for your information?
     
  14. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did he? Did I? :)

    Actually, Freeatlast did not explain with "specific examples" how the video was agenda driven, not biblical and false - pretty important claims. But I am sure you knew that.
     
  15. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think what is meant by "secret rapture" is that the World will not clearly know what has happened - there is no prior warning or announcement. The World will simply be suddenly bereft of Christians. The first one who used the term, as far as I can tell, is one of the few pre-Darby pretribbers, Peter Jurieu, in his 1687 volume, "The Approaching Deliverance of the Church." Obviously, he saw nothing pejorative about a secret rapture.

    Darby never used the term, and several modern dispys dislike it.
     
    #15 Siberian, Apr 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2011
  16. Siberian

    Siberian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are several good attempts to trace the doctrine throughout history. One of them is "The Rapture in Twenty Centuries of Biblical Interpretation" James Stitzinger, The Masters Seminary Journal, Fall 2002, p148-170. Stitzinger largely agrees with Allan's summary.
     

Share This Page

Loading...