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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by livin'intheword, Nov 22, 2001.
what's your take on it and why?
I want it for Christmas.
I'm a pre-tribber, and that "blessed hope" keeps me optimistic and praying and praising and thanking God every day!
As for the "why", well... I'm new at Christianity and never heard of the rapture before February of this year. But all the sources I've studied and/or listened to (4 ministries in the morning on the Christian radio station) espouse a pre-trib Rapture. I can't find fault with their reasoning, and I've been studying Revelation on my own.
I'm ready - wanna go NOW!
Was "Pre-Wrath" (mid-trib) during early years but since seminary the more I study of the amill, post mill, and post trib positions, the more I am thankful God led me to the Pre-Tribulational Rapture position. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amillennialist here (no rapture).
A promise is a promise (Rev 3:10)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Th 4:16-17 NIV)
After the dead come forth, their spirits, already with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23), now being joined to resurrected new bodies (see notes on 1 Cor. 15:35-50), the living Christians will be raptured, lit. snatched away (cf. John 10:28; Acts 8:39). This passage, along with John 14:1-3 and 1 Cor. 15:51,52, form the biblical basis for "the Rapture" of the church. The time of the Rapture cannot be conclusively determined from this passage alone. However, when other texts such as Rev. 3:10 and John 14:3 are consulted and compared to the texts about Christ's coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34-50; 24:29-44; Rev. 19:11-21) at the end of a 7 year tribulation, it has to be noted that there is a clear difference between the character of the "Rapture" in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts feature judgment. So then, it is best to understand that the Rapture occurs at a time different from the coming of Christ in judgment. Thus, the Rapture has been described as pretribulational (before the wrath of God unfolded in the judgments of Rev. 6-19). This event includes complete transformation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51,52; Phil 3:20,21) and union with the Lord Jesus Christ that never ends.
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3:10 NIV)
Revelation 5:9-10 (ESV) And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." But angels soon join the creatures and the elders in praising the Lamb in v.11-12.
The Greek text used by the KJV indicates that the new song is sung by those who themselves have been redeemed: "Thou . . . has redeemed us to God . . . and hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."
The NIV, however, reads, "You purchased men for God. . . . You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." If the KJV is correct, the 24 elders must represent the church or saints in general. If their song is impersonal as in the NIV and they simply are singing that Christ is the Redeemeer of all men, it opens the possibility that the 24 elders could be angels, though it does not expressly affirm it.
While scholars differ on this point, it would seem that since the elders are clothed in white, indicating purity; seated on thrones, suggesting responsibility and status; crowned with victors' wreaths seem to indicate that the elders had been judged and rewarded; and they themselves bear witness that they have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and, therefore, constitute a kingdom of priests. Such a description can only represent redeemed humanity, i.e. the OT and NT saints who are raptured and missing out on The Great Tribulation!
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:1-3 NIV)
In 2 Thess. 2 we are told that 'one' is holding back the 'secret power of lawlessness' which is part and parcel of the reign of the antichrist. The only 'one' who can hold back lawlessness is God. BUT God the Father is in heaven. God the Son is seated at His right hand and will remain there until it is time for Him to return. So that means the job of restraint is delegated to the Holy Spirit, who resides in the hearts of born again believers (Romans 8:8).
Now go to Hebrews 13:5, which quotes Deuteronomy 31:6, where God says, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."
If the Holy Spirit, the one restraining evil, is taken out of the way, what happens to Christians? Are they left without Him? That would be God breaking His promise to all of us. Therefore, if we are not to be left as orphans (John 14:18), we go when the Holy Spirit goes. For we ARE the Temple of the Lord now, here on earth. It is we who will be removed before the antichrist is revealed. It is through us that the Holy Spirit is holding back evil.
Our rapture is not just promised, but absolutely necessary for the progression of events marked by the Tribulation.
But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die.
When this happens-when our perishable earthly bodies have been transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die-then at last the Scriptures will come true:
"Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?" 1 Cor 15:51-55
The church is not mentioned in Revelation chapters 4-18 which describes the tribulation period in detail.
And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered together to meet him. 2 Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have had a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. 3 Don't be fooled by what they say.
For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed-the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God. 5 Don't you remember that I told you this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. (2 Thes 2:1-6)
1. John 14:1-3 makes little sense in a post trib rapture. In what sense do believers go to the Father's house, if they return immediately to rule with Christ on earth? Christ himself seems to teach by implication or at least presuppose a pre-trib rapture here. Wellsj referred to this earlier but no one that I have seen attempted to answer it.
2. If a) the rapture is at the end of the trib, and if b) the rapture includes all the believers, and if c) all the unbelievers are destroyed at Armageddon, then who is left to populate the earth during the millennium? Points (b) and (c) are irrefutable. Point (a) is the point under discussion. Very simply put, if all three of these protases are true, then there is no one left to populate the earth during the millennium. In this case you are left with Christ ruling over nobody and Satan having no nations to deceive when he is released from the bottomless pit (Rev 20:7-9). The only way that there are people to populate the earth during the millennium is if there is a pre-trib rapture, then people saved during the tribulation who enter the millennial kingdom and populate the earth.
[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Houstonian:
Amillennialist here (no rapture).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Shouldn't this thread be moved to Theology?
John: None of those passages - nada - mention a pretrib rapture.
This is one issue that I really don't have an opinion on.... Y'all can get up off the floor now.
Pre-Trib and waitin for the Sound!
I believe in a pre-trib Rapture and here's why
The very nature of a the Tribulation precludes the church from suffering. It is a time of wrath and judgment, indignation, darkness, distruction and death.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
" And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats I saw four and twenty four elders, sitting, clothed in white raiment, and they had on their heads crowns of gold."
We see in Ephesians 2:6
" And hath raisen us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." - There's the church sittnig round about the thrown that we saw in Rev.4:4
And in 2 Timothy 4:8
" Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day, and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
There is the Churchs crown we saw in Rev.4:4
And in Revelation 19:8
" And to her was granted that she sould be arrayed in fine linen. Clean and white for the fine linen is the righteoness of the saints."
There is the Chruchs "white raiment" that we saw in Rev.4:4
The Rapture must come before the Tribulation because at the very beginning of the Tribulation John described it as seen in heaven, seated, robed and crowned.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
"And to you who are trouble rest with us, when the Lod Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mightly angels
In flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
The wrath of God durning the Tribulation is to be poured out on " those who know not God", not on the Chruch.
Removing of the "salt of the earth"
Genesis 19:17, 22
17) "nd it came to pass, when they had brought them forth aboard that he said, Escape for they life, look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the moutain, lest thou be consumed"
God, by way of the Angels told Lot to leave Sodom and Gomorrah. He made a way for Lot to escape his wrath.
22)"Haste thee, escape thither for I cannot do anything til thou be come thither, therefore the name of the city was called Zoar."
The presence of one righteous man helf back the wrath of God. Lot had to be removed for Somdom and Gomorrah to be destroyed.
"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created fromt he face of the eath; both man and beast and the creeping thing and the fowls of the air' for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of God."
God planned a way for Noah to escape his wrath and waited until Noah and his family were safe on board the Ark. Then the rain came. God doesn't change, if he removed the righteous before he destroyed the whole earth in the flood, why wouldn't he do the same before the Tribulation? God made a way to escape the Tribulation, it's called Salvation.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ya may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
After the Rapture we as Christains will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ. Known as the "bema" seat of Christ. We must stand for a full review of our faithfulness.
The Judgment seat of Christ is different from the Great White Thrown Judgment, and therefore must come before the end of the earth, which is at the end of the Tribulation.
More to come, didn't want to bog anyone down with a super huge long post.
[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
A promise is a promise (Rev 3:10) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The "vine" doesn't produce "figs", it only bears "Olive berries".
The "Fig tree" is "withered up" until the "harvest of the Vine" (rapture, fulness of Gentiles) is harvested.
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no "fountain" ( Spiritual Rock 1Co 10:4) both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches:
Jeff Weaver said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Amillennialist here (no rapture). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chris Temple said:
Originally posted by Houstonian:
Amillennialist here (no rapture).
Why? Why don't you believe an any type of Rapture?
" So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time, without sin untio salvation."
See, this is the second time we've agreed in one week!
But you see, we argee on the important things.
I'm a Pre-Tribber too! I can't wait!!!
I don't want to get trigger happy my first day on the job! BUT Chris suggested that this discussion belongs in Theology and I tend to agree - since it is a doctrine-related issue rather than a denominational one. So just want to let you all know that I am moving it over there. Look for "The Rapture" in the Baptist Theology and Bible Study forum. Thanks.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by livin'intheword:
Why? Why don't you believe an any type of Rapture? Paula<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who said that? I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but rather that we meet the Lord in the air on the Last Day - as Christ said
You're guilty of reading into the text what I did not say ... but I guess that's SOP for invisible rapturists