The Reconciliation of Jonathan Edwards

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by swaimj, Jan 30, 2003.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj
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    From page 94 of John Piper's The Soveriegnty Of God In Preaching comes this quote from Jonathan Edwards. I left Edward's quote embedded in Piper's context.
    Does anyone disagree with this quote?
     
  2. Scott J

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    This could work as a standard rebuttal to about half of non-calvinists objections.
     
  3. Skandelon

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    Wow, that is a great quote. Arminians on this board are always throwing out verses that indicate man's unwillingness to follow Christ as if that somehow proves Calvinism wrong. Actually, it does quite the opposite. It proves man's will must be changed in order for them to act in accordance with God's commands.

    Good quote, I'm interested as to what Ray, our resident Arminian Th.D., has to say about that.

    Sam
     
  4. npetreley

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    It is a great quote, thanks! I particularly like the reference to: "God worketh in you both to will and to do" (Phil. 2:13), which says it all.
     
  5. swaimj

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    So far, three have responded indicating that they think the other side is apt to disagree with the quote, but no one has actually disagreed with it. Perhaps we have found the perfect quote with which no one disagrees.

    Bumping the topic and still waiting.... :cool:
     
  6. Rev. G

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    As a Calvinist, and more specifically as an Edwardsean, I agree with this statement from Jonathan Edwards.
     
  7. sturgman

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    Ok, what do you CALVINIST do when the bible says....

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] Ok I am just joking, as a calvinist I have to applaud! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  8. Monergist

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    Not a bit ;)
     
  9. Skandelon

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    I guess no Arminian here is man enough to take on Piper. :(

    Sam
     
  10. ScottEmerson

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    Does anyone disagree with this quote? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, from an Arminian lens, I completely agree with the above statement. Believe it or not, but I don't think that Arminians believe that they somehow save themselves.
     
  11. sturgman

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    But most arminians believe that they have a part in it. Like 99% God, and 1% me. Because if it were not for my cooperation, then God could not save me. I know this to be true, because I was once one.
     
  12. Yelsew

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    As the Christ said on the Cross, "It is finished", the work of God is finished leaving nothing left to do but believe in the one who completed the work in us. So the choice of whether to believe or not believe remains the sole domain of man!

    The work of God is belief. He gave man everything that would persuade him to believe, and many men have come to the point of being "almost persuaded". God, however, does not decide for man. For it is belief that saves and unbelief that condemns.

    God has no reason to believe, he knows, so God does not work to believe, but rather his work is finished, and there is no work that man can do! We are saved or condemned by whether we believe or choose to not believe. Jesus, the Son of God clearly says so.

    There is no remaining work that you or God is obligated to do. For it is "not of works, lest anyman should boast...". AND God's work is finished, "and the seventh day He rests".

    Whosoever meaneth 'me'...regardless of who 'me' is. God opened the gates of heaven to everyman who hears and believes. That is what His Son says. Who are we to disagree with the Son of God?
     
  13. sturgman

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    Where does belief come from?

    Answer: God

    And if that is true, God saved no man on the cross, it only made it possible for man to be saved by man believing. That is a work of man unless you believe "belief " is a work of God.
     
  14. Yelsew

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    I am convinced, thus believe that belief is not a work at all! There is nothing that I can do that results in belief. I can hear the word of God, but hearing is not a work. I can read the word of God, but reading is not really a work either because it produces nothing, though it does result in altered knowledge within the individual who does read. altered in that it revises or increases knowledge. No one has ever resulted in having less knowledge by reading.

    belief produces nothing! It only results only in man's acceptance of all that has been done by God for man. Belief if acted upon produces works. Belief if not acted upon is dead belief.

    One must accept (believe) that the work of salvation has been completed, and that it applies to him. By so believing, one picks up the white robe of salvation that God has already given to any who will belief (accept) it.

    I have never said that all have salvation (universalism). In truth, I have oft stated the few will actually believe. Thus the Broad gate to destruction and the Narrow gate to salvation.

    It remains man's choice! God has given man everything needed for man to make the choice. To deny that man must choose is to reject the whole of scripture!
     
  15. sturgman

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    You Said -
    I am convinced, thus believe that belief is not a work at all! There is nothing that I can do that results in belief. I can hear the word of God, but hearing is not a work. I can read the word of God, but reading is not really a work either because it produces nothing, though it does result in altered knowledge within the individual who does read. altered in that it revises or increases knowledge. No one has ever resulted in having less knowledge by reading.

    Here is a new one. Salvation does not come by a mans knowledge. If that were the case, only smart men would go to heaven. So does God not saved the mentally handicapped? Or maybe they are exempt. So does God have different standard for dumb people? Or maybe it is not based upon knowledge at all. Mormons have a great amount of knowledge yet they are not a believing people.

    You said -
    belief produces nothing! It only results only in man's acceptance of all that has been done by God for man. Belief if acted upon produces works. Belief if not acted upon is dead belief.

    Hello! "produces" and "results" are the same thing.So to say that belief "produces nothing! It only results" Does anyone else see this as stupid. And how can you act upon belief? You believe so you are saying that you believe in belief that God already took care of belief on the cross? That is cirular nonsense!

    You said -
    One must accept (believe) that the work of salvation has been completed, and that it applies to him. By so believing, one picks up the white robe of salvation that God has already given to any who will belief (accept) it.

    Whether you believe that belief is a work or not, it is still from God. We showed you in Romans an Phillipians.

    You said -
    I have never said that all have salvation (universalism). In truth, I have oft stated the few will actually believe. Thus the Broad gate to destruction and the Narrow gate to salvation.

    If it was decided by me, then I am the final factor in my salvation. I chose the narrow gate and I made a better decision than you. That is a crock.

    You said -
    It remains man's choice! God has given man everything needed for man to make the choice. To deny that man must choose is to reject the whole of scripture!

    This is a great thought, but is established no where in scripture. I have stated that it is incapable for man to choose God. You have stated that mans nature is to rebel against God. How can man choose God if this is true?
     
  16. Yelsew

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    You are right, Knowledge does not save, but belief that is based on knowledge does save! Scripture says that "faith (belief) cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. What you "hear" that brings faith, becomes knowledge that you either accept or reject. First grade material, Sturgman.
     
  17. sturgman

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    Ok, let me speak slowly for you, because you still have not answered my question.

    Where... Does... Belief... Come... From?

    Does it not come from God?

    Phiilipians 1 "it has been granted to you, not only to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but also suffer for his sake..."

    Romans 10:17, "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

    Answer this big boy. You always skip over the work assigned. If you continue, you will never make it to the first grade Yelsew.
     
  18. Yelsew

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    That may come as a surprise to the Mormons, because they all believe!

    It's not whether or not one believes that is in question here, for everyone believes in something or someone. It is what one believes that is in question. Even the most vile human being believes in something! Even the Mormons believe in GOD, but they believe that through much work they can become god, and have a world of their own to be god over. You've got to accept that the Mormons do in fact believe in god!

    Get real Spurgman, Belief produces nothing, the work of God unto salvation is already complete and completely finished. Belief then results in salvations because it is by belief that man is saved. "For by faith are ye saved". Ya, I know I dropped the "by grace" part, because all men, everywhere, are treated equally under God's grace, thus it is only by the individual's faith that the individual is saved.
    Show me some tangible proof that I am wrong. Show me one who got to heaven that did not choose to go there! Show me one who is in "the Lords Army" that did not volunteer. Show me one who with out his/her own consensual choice is seated at the bridegroom's supper. Prove me wrong!
     
  19. Yelsew

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    NOT ACCEPTABLE!
     
  20. sturgman

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    You said -
    Show me some tangible proof that I am wrong. Show me one who got to heaven that did not choose to go there! Show me one who is in "the Lords Army" that did not volunteer. Show me one who with out his/her own consensual choice is seated at the bridegroom's supper. Prove me wrong!

    Me for one. CS Lewis said, "I was the most reluctant convert in all of England. God brought me kicking and screaming!" Paul, he never asked to be blinded on the road to Damascus. How many do you want?

    As far as my maturity goes I think you comment about first grade material was posted previous to mine. What does that say of maturity?
     

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