The Reign of death versus life - Rom. 5:17

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded to many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.
    17 For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


    Paul distinguishes between the immediate and continuing differences between the actions of one man ( Adam or Christ) upon many in verses 15-16. The offence of one man resulted in many "BE dead". In direct contrast by one man came the gift of grace to many (v. 15) "IN LIFE" thus spiritual life. So the initial consequence of what each man did is in contrast - spiritual death versus gift of grace or justification of life - spiritual life. Thus this does not refer to physical death. This refers to the initial consequence whereas verse 16 contrasts the initial consequences with the continuing consquence of each man's action. The continuing consequence of Adam's offense is judgement of many to condemnation, ("condemned already") whereas the continuing consequence of Christ's obedience is the free gift to many unto justification "IN LIFE".

    Verse 17 contrasts the reign of death versus grace due to these representative men's actions. Deaith reigned by one through his one sin - Adam. However, grace reigns "IN LIFE" only for those who "receive abundance of grace." Here is another marked distinction between the "many" effected by Adam's sin versus the many effected by Christ's obedience. Death comes automatically by the physical relationship of many to Adam by natural birth. However, the benefits of Christ must be received by the "many" whom Christ represented. It does not come automatically by any physical relationship to Christ. The only way for "many" to have any relationship with Christ is by new birth (Jn. 3:6). Grace is a "gift" that must be received in order for it to reign "IN LIFE" whereas "death" reigns automatically from natural birth.

    Verses 18-19 change from "many" to "all" because verse 17 distinguishes between "many" wheren death automatically reigns by natural relationship whereas the benefits of Christ only reign "IN LIFE" due to an act of grace or the gift of grace received by "many." Hence, "all" in reference to Adam in verses 18-19 refer to those in a NATURAL relationship with Adam whereas "all" in reference to Christ in verse 18-19 refer to those in a GRACE relationship with Christ that must be received after natural birth.

    Paul makes this clear in 1 Cor 15 where Adam and the Second Adam are again placed in contrast and where "all" in Adam is distinguished from "all" in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22 and this distinction is revealed in the NATURAL body received from Adam in this lfie versus the SUPERNATURAL body received from those "in Christ" in the resurrection.


    CONCLUSION: The arminian argument that our interpretation of all mankind having sinned when Adam sinned demands universal salvation is demonstrated to be a faulty argument based upon verse 17 and 1 Cor. 15 that the benefits of Christ must be received IN ADDITION as a "gift of grace" to what came naturally by relationship to Adam.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013
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  2. Winman

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    Your interpretation of Romans 5 is error. Romans 5 is not speaking of physical death, but spiritual. Look at the terms used in this passage, they are all legal terms such as "sin", "condemnation", "judgment", "righteousness", etc... Not one of these terms relates to physical death or our physical body.

    1 Corinthians chapter 15 IS speaking of physical death, again, look at the terms used, such as "body", "raised up", "sown" "reaped", "flesh and blood", etc... These are all words describing the physical, not judicial terms like Romans 5.

    The term "in Adam" is used just ONCE in all of scripture in 1 Cor 15:22. This verse does not say men are born dead in Adam, it says "in Adam all die" which is future tense. This is speaking of physical death.

    Physical death did pass to all men because of Adam's sin. God chased Adam and Eve out of the garden, and put an angel to guard the tree of life so that no man will physically live forever in this body we are born in. Enoch and Elijah MIGHT be the one exception.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 is not speaking of spiritual death, but if it was it would refute Original Sin, as you must first be alive to "die" future tense.
     
    #2 Winman, Dec 26, 2013
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  3. The Biblicist

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    It is speaking of both and both equally condemn your interpretation. Look at verses 13a where it is PHYSICAL death that is the subject:

    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,

    Indeed, the sin under consideration is the violation of Genesis 2:17 where it literally reads "dying thou shalt surely die" thus inclusive of spiritual, physical and eternal death. Even creation was made subject to this "corruption" not "willingly" but due to Adam's sin and creation cannot suffer SPIRITUAL death and the PHYSICAL DEATH of the human body is in view:

    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.



    You are denying that either physical or eternal death is a judgement and condemnation of sin by one man. Death is separation from life. It begins with separation from SPIRITUAL life and it proceeds to separation of the immaterial man from the PHYSICAL life in the body and concludes in separation eternally from God in spirit, soul and body in Gehenna. You are contradicting Genesis 2:17 "dying thou shalt surely die" which is THE CONSEQUENCE of THE SIN committed by one man Adam.

    Wrong! I Corinthians continues the distinction between all "in Adam" versus all "in Christ" and the NATURAL and SUPERNATURAL consequences in regard to both SPIRITUAL and PHYSICAL death.

    Once is sufficient! Death of the body is the direct result of sin or else Paul would never say "all IN ADAM die" and the context has THE BODY, its death and resurrection in view. Hence, physical death of the body is specifically identifed with being "IN ADAM" and "ALL" who are in Adam are subject to "death" as the condemnation for one man's act of disobedience. In contrast "life" is identified with being "IN CHRIST" as the lost are reserved unto the resurrection OF CONDEMNATION AND DEATH in regard to their bodily resurrection.

    HEnce, it is IMPOSSIBLE to remove physical death from the consequence of sin in Genesis 2:16 and the words "dying thou shalt surely die" which is the sin and consequences dealt with in both Romans 5 and 1 Cor. 15.


    You contradict Paul as he traces PHYSICAL DEATH to all "IN ADAM" in 1 Cor. 15:22 and the body is in view with the judgement of God (1 Cor. 15:23-25).



    You are taking an obscure passage that is highly debated to sustain a major doctrine when your interpretation contradicts all of the rest of scripture. If death was not the consequence included in Genesis 2:17 and all were not physically born in a spiritual dead condition then why keep men from the tree of life as that would secure their salvation in a sinless state. However, if they are born with a sinful nature then preventing sinful mankind from living physicaly forever would contradict the penalty placed upon them in Genesis 2:17 "dying thou shalt surely die." Your interpretation directly contradicts the meaning of Genesis 2:17 and all of scripture that follows.
    ]
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    I Corinthians 15 is speaking about PHYSICAL death and Paul attributes PHYSICAL death to being "in Adam" as he says "all in Adam DIE" (1 Cor. 15:22). Moreover, he makes it clear that "death" is the last "enemy" of God rather than a NATURAL PROCESS unrelated to sin.

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    By one man sin entered the world and death by sin - Rom. 5:12

    Physical death in 1 Cor. 15:21 is directly attributed with being "in Adam"


    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    "all die" is NOT found in the future tense as you claim but it translates the PRESENT TENSE verb. Neither is physical death unrelated to sin as you claim but is inseparably connected to sin as the "enemy" of God:

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    This is stated in a clear and unambigous context of PHYSICAL DEATH of the body and clearly states that PHYSICAL DEATH is attributed to sin which is the violation of the law as clearly stated in Genesis 2:17 "dying thou shalt surely die."

    Your whole system of interpretation is completely false and anti-Biblical.
     
  5. Winman

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    I am not going to enter into a war of attrition with you. When it comes to being stubborn and obstinate, I don't stand a chance against you.

    Romans 5 is dealing with spiritual death, all a person has to do is look at the terms used, like "judgment" or "condemnation" and it is easy to see these are all legal terms.

    In 1 Corinthians 15 the scriptures are talking about physical death. This chapter teaches the resurrection of our physical bodies.

    Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin, it shows that men from Adam to Moses did not sin after the similitude of Adam. Men from Adam to Moses died because they broke the law on their hearts. All men knew of sin before Moses' law.

    Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

    There was no written law against homosexuality until Moses, yet God said they were exceedingly wicked sinners

    Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

    Romans 1:26-27 tells us that men naturally understand that homosexuality is unnatural and a sin.

    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    Before Moses' law was given all men knew that homosexuality was unnatural and a sin.

    But I am not going to slug it out with you, as you are far more stubborn than I am.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Your only response to the evidence that proves you are wrong is what? Personal attack. YOu have no answers to the evidences placed before you that directly contradict and repudiate every word you stated.

    Readers, just look at my last post. Winman cannot and thus dares not address a single solitary piece of many evidences proving, exposing and repudiating his erroneous interpretations.


    How does this address that the single sin in view is violation of Genesis 2:17 which spells out the legal basis for not merely spiritual but physical and eternal death?????

    How does this address that PHYSICAL DEATH is directly attributed to Adam rather than INDIVIDUAL acts of sin - 1 Cor. 15:21-22????

    How does this address that PHSYICAL DEATH is directly attributed to sin rather than NATURAL consequences - 1 Cor. 15:25; 56-57??????

    YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS!! Only poor and erroneous interpretations.

    In 1 Corinthians 15 the scriptures are talking about physical death. This chapter teaches the resurrection of our physical bodies.


    First, Romans 5:12-19 deals with UNIVERSAL LAW violated by ONE MAN that directly affected the universal death and condemnation of all in No such law can be found between Genesis and Exodus 20 except Genesis 2:17.

    Second, go learn what "similitude" means as it is condemning YOUR POSITION not mine. We do not believe that death comes upon individuals due to sinning LIKE Adam but that death comes upon all mankind because they actually, literally particpated in THE SIN as one human nature in the person of one man - NO LIKENESS AT ALL but the original sin.
     
  7. Winman

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    What a ridiculous argument. Paul could have simply said we were all in Adam's loins as was said of Levi being in Abraham's loins in Hebrews 7.

    No, Paul is simply showing men from Adam to Moses did not sin in a similar manner as Adam did. And how could they? There was only ONE law, and they were prevented from even approaching the forbidden tree.

    Yet these men died spiritually. Why? Because they had broken the law written on their hearts as Paul had just shown in Romans 2.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    If he had, you would have ridiculed it by claiming it had to affect Christ as well as you do in another post, thus made Christ a sinner. Of course the incarnation removes that possibility whether you acknowlege that or not.

    It is "ridiculous" as that is the only response you have since you can't deal with the meaning of "simlitude" and how it condemns YOUR POSITION not mine. We do not believe death comes upon all between Adam and Moses because anyone sinned after the "simlitude" or likeness of Adams transgression as that is YOUR POSITION. We utterly deny that any human before or After Moses is condemned to death because of INDIVIDUAL LIKENESS to Adam's sin - that is YOUR POSITION. Again, go learn what the term means and then apply it properly. If you do, it will only condemn YOUR POSITION and interpretation that attributes death to INDIVDIUAL SINS that have a LEGAL PRECEDENT in the sin of Adam.
     
  9. Winman

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    Nobody is fooled by your double-talk. If Paul was teaching Original Sin as you postulate, then Paul would have said ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses.

    Your arguments have more holes than the Titanic.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Again, learn to read! Veres 13-14 is introduced by the universal declaration that all men have "sinned" (v. 12) Aorist tense completed action, rather than your idea which would read "death passed upon all who shall sin."

    Instead, the universal declaration is first made in verse 12 that sin and death came by one man and now the proof is offered in verses 13-14.

    The fact that no such law can be found in the pages of Genesis to Exodus that attributes universal death to its violation other than Genesis 2:17 and that it is "by one man" that accomplished that completed action so "by one man's disobedience many were MADE SINNERS."
     
  11. Winman

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    I showed this in the other thread, I'll show it here;

    Barnes agrees with me, that the only law these persons had broken was "natural law" the law written on the heats and conscience of every man.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    But we are not saying that? We are saying they actually existed and consisted and acted in unison as one indivisible human nature in ONE MAN committing that sin. Nothing needed to be "imputed" as they were present and acting in one human nature. As Barnes says, the fact they died proved they were actual sinners not merely by imputation.

    Death is justly "imputed" to them because they actually were present and actually committed that sin in the person of "one man" or one indivisible human nature existing and acting as one man.

    I thought you said you were going to stop arguing with me????
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013
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  13. The Biblicist

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    Paul's whole line of argument is that judgement to the condemnation of death is all based upon ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE whereas the whole line of Arminian' interpretation is the very opposite, that that judgement to the condemnation of death is due to MANY SINS by MANY SINNERS.

    The bottom line arminian interpretation of this passage is that many sins is how "many are made sinners" and Many be dead" while Paul's argument is the very opposite that it is due to ONE MAN'S SIN many "be dead" and many are "made sinners."

    The Arminian interpretation is that Adam's sin and consequences simply provide the LEGAL PRECEDENT whereby individual acts of disobedience obtain personal sin and condemnation thus denying substitutionary atonement and justification by faith but rather making Christ's obedience which obtain resurrection life only a LEGAL PRECEDENT for our own personal obedience thereby obtainng resurrection life - thus justification by works.
     
  14. Winman

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    Barnes disagreed with this view as well;

    So, you are way out in right field on this one, you are out in the parking lot across the street.

    Clever argument, but total error that even most Calvinists reject.
     
  15. percho

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    And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Hebrews 7:9,10

    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, from Gal 3:19

    However between Adam and the adding of the law, because of transgressions, their transgressions were not imputed to them but they died in Adam. They died because Adam had sinned.

    They were born, spiritually dead awaiting death in the flesh.

    Death in the flesh brought death forever, unless redemption is made. The faith by which death could be overcome is that in the fullness of time God would send his Son to be born of woman, born under the law, that through his obedience unto death even the death of the cross, life could be given again. The resurrection, incorruptible.
     
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  16. Winman

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    If you are going to say all men die because they were in Adam's loins and use Hebrews 7 as your proof-text, then Jesus would have been a sinner because he was in the loins of David his father.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Jesus was the fruit of David's loins, so if sin is physically passed from the father to the son, Jesus would have been guilty of adutery when David cheated with Bathsheba.

    Men from Adam to Moses died because they offended the law written in their heart.

    Rom 2:12
    For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    Note that Paul did not mention Adam here, but said men die from committing their own sin.
     
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  17. The Biblicist

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    The Levi example only proves that God can impute an action to someone not yet born. In the case of Jesus that is impossible as the incarnation makes it impossible for Christ to be in the loins of Adam in the sense of progation of the fallen human nature as the egg in Eve's womb was fertilized by the Holy Spirit apart from the human male thus providing only human nature rather than a fallen human nature.

    Romans 5:12-15 demands at minimum the one act of Adam made many to "be dead" thus demandind Spiritual death is what is passed down from Adam, or the human father of the race to all men. Christ did not receive this spiritually dead nature from Adam or any other male in the link of human generation.

    To deny the Biblical function for the incarnation is to deny the incarnation.

    To promote LEGAL PRECEDENT of Adams act of disobedience and condemnation is to deny justification by faith and salvation by grace without works.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013
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  18. Winman

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    Baloney, I have already showed that Jesus was the fruit of David's loins.

    And what was the most common name the Jews called Jesus? SON of DAVID.

    Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

    Baloney, Romans 5:12 says death passed on all men "for that all have sinned".
    Again Romans 2:12 would be a falsehood if your view was correct.

    More pure baloney. I do not deny the incarnation, but Jesus inherited his flesh from Mary, and Mary was of David.

    Nonsense. A legal precedent simply provides a consistent judgment and punishment for a specific crime. Adam's sentence for his sin was "death", likewise all men who sinned after him were sentenced to "death".

    Jesus was the legal precedent for those who believe God. Jesus believed God and trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. Now, all who trust God to save them from sin through Jesus are imputed righteous.
     
  19. percho

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    Concerning Adam from Hebrews 2:6,7 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;

    Concerning Jesus from Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,

    Jesus was able to see/taste death because he was of the loins of David and Adam. He also died in Adam with our sin imputed to him. Imputed to him, BTW by his Father, God. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Romans 4:8
    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal. 3:13
     
    #19 percho, Dec 26, 2013
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