The Resurrection Body and 1st Cor. 15

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    I wrote this article three years ago, but havve since revised and expanded it.

    The Resurrection Body and 1st Cor. 15.
    But don't forget 12, 13, and 14

    One thing I noticed in studying out 1st Corinthians and the resurrection body is that this seems to be a sustained theme in this epistle, the last part at least. People miss the whole picture who just focus on that 15th chapter.

    Of course, as a Preterist, I have a different view on what the resurrection body is than many here, I realize. I believe that the emphasis in chapter 15 is much more on a corporate vs. a bodily (individual) resurrection. With that emphasis in mind I began to notice the wider context. Interesting facts came to light.

    Starting with the word "body"
    Number one fact is that there is not one single reference to "bodies" in the plural in reference to the resurrection. This is an important detail. One does a Google search for the phrase "bodily resurrection" "resurrection bodies", "glorified bodies", etc. and one will get many hits, many pointing to the very chapter under consideration. But if you do a Bible search for those terms - or terms truly comparable - you come up with nothing.

    The chapters of 1 Cor.12 through 15 have much to say about the term "body". I believe a study of these can be very fruitful. Take a look at some preliminary details:

    Chapters 12 - 15 have 22 references to the word "body".
    Chapters 12 - 15 have only 2 references to "bodies", 15:40 - in a reference to astronomical objects.

    Here is the breakdown:
    12:12 (twice); 13; 14; 15 (twice); 16 (twice); 17; 18; 19; 20; 22; 23; 24; 25; 27. Sixteen references to "body".

    13:3 starts with a reference to an individual body, Paul's. The only reference in the chapter to "body".

    14:1 - 15:9 has no references to "body", but has 10 references to "the church". I believe that this is synonymous, reflecting a partial shift in Paul's subject from the unity of the church in 12 to the usefulness (or uses) of the church in the present passage. Though the emphasis shifted it is still the same subject; the church as the body of Christ.

    15:38 and 40 give two body examples from creation, their being distinguished in nature and in glory.

    Now we come to the "body" verses in the context of the resurrection.
    15:42, 44 (four times).

    I want to go into greater detail on these verses later, but first I wanted to draw attention to the context that these verses need to be seen in. It is noteworthy that these last few verses are all so often called upon and carefully lifted out and exposited - to the exclusion of that necessary background. When you study the whole - Don't take my word for it. Do it yourself - you notice that Paul is really stressing the unity of the body, and that it is - that we are - one in Christ. But we are of such an individualistic bent - and we have inherited such an individualistic framework of Christianity - that we have a hard time seeing this.
    ---
    There are a few things I wanted to add to my original post. Taking a broader look at these chapters it can be seen that Paul, though he leaves off referring to "body" in chapters 13 and 14 (with one off-topic exception of 13:3) he now refers to "church", using one as synonymously for the other. The body is the church:

    12:18: "God has set the members ... in the body."
    12:24: "God composed the body"

    compared to verses like...
    12:28: "God has appointed these in the church."

    12:4 - 12 expounds on the gifts to benefit the the body, and
    12:28; 14:12, 26 the gifts to the church.

    My OP was never about our not getting our individual rewards, or that we will just blend into some cosmic spiritual oversoul. We will always be individuals. And we will always (as the Confession says) "enjoy Him forever". But we will be spiritual beings, not flesh and blood. As Paul says, that would be an impossibility. God is Spirit. We worship in spirit and in truth. We fellowship and commune the same way.

    We are so attuned to the physicality of this life, and are so acculturated to traditional and engrained thinking, that we have a hard time even thing about not being physical. We appraise the reward of a spiritual God by flesh-and-blood standards. We are set in the flesh, biased toward it, that we instinctively recoil at suggestions of being "merely" spiritual. But Christ before the Incarnation was "merely" spirit. The Father and Spirit always wereand will be such. If the perfect God, the everlasting Trinity, had existed forever in spiritual (not physical) form why should it seem a bad thing for us, likewise, not to have physical bodies?

    Once again: my point in the OP was that physical bodies in the resurrection is not what Paul was writing of in these chapters. His main thrust was on the body of Christ, and that we are members of that one body. He says this several times.
     
  2. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    76
    When you say "spiritual" in contrast to "physical", I think you've not made the proper contrast. Scripture makes the following two contrasts, and it is important:

    spirit vs. physical

    spiritual vs. natural

    In the first, the contrast would be that God is Spirit, and that we are spirit beings residing in a physical body

    But the second contrast has nothing to do with ontology or metaphysical characteristics.
    Spiritual = mature, blameless, complete, etc
    Natural = immature, sinful, carnal

    When Paul said we will have a "spiritual" body, he absolutely did not mean we will be disembodied. This sin-wrecked (natural) body will be transformed into one which is not sin-wrecked (spiritual)
     
  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    First of all, no one is talking about a disembodied reward for Christians. "Body" does not strictly imply "natural body" or "physical body". It also can refer to "spiritual body".

    And in v.46 Paul contrasts "spiritual" with "natural", but you seem to want, not a contrast, but a part of each.

    These are the word and phrases associated with this "natural":
    "Adam" v.45
    "first" 46
    "of the earth", or "dust" 47
    "of the image of ... dust" 49
    "flesh and blood" 50
    "corruption" 50
    All of these terms being contrasted with a better, spiritual term, paint a pretty good general picture. From what we see here the physical is on the other side of the ledger. It is at last from an eschatological perspective. The physical nature of man was not - and still is not - evil in itself. But there comes a time when it will have served its purpose. It is only our "tabernacle".

    The really important realities, as Paul will later write to these Corinthians (2 Cor. 4:16-18) , are invisible.

    "as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."
     
    #3 asterisktom, Sep 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2014
  4. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    76
    I posted 3-4 times in the other thread on resurrection, building to what Paul meant by "spiritual" body.

    He did not have in mind ontology or metaphysics.

    Natural = carnal, defiled, sinful, immature, or even earthly. In short, sin-wrecked.
    Spiritual = undefiled, sinless, mature, or heavenly. In short, NOT sin-wrecked.

    In this life, we have a defiled physical body - natural
    In the next, we will have an undefiled physical body - spiritual
     
    #4 JamesL, Sep 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2014
  5. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,873
    Likes Received:
    326
    One word: Gnosticism
     
  6. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    76
    Who would you be referring to?

    I've seen at least one charge of Gnosticism against Tom in another thread, probably based on the idea that he's advocating a disembodied state. I gathered that, too, til he made mention of his view of a spiritual body.

    I've also been charged with the same, due to a misconception that I'm advocating a dualistic view with physical matter being inherently evil. Yet, I have never mentioned any inherent quality. Corruption is not the same


    Tom has not, that I know of, mentioned any Gnosis - and neither have I.


    It might help to investigate Gnosticism before making your charge.
     
  7. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    Oh, please. Show me how I could possibly be a gnostic. That is what you have been taught Preterists are.

    A few people - very few - here have answered me using the Bible. That is to their credit, showing that they value God's Word as primary source for proving or disproving. The majority just whiz out one-liners or, like you, one word.

    Care to be a Berean and try again?
     
  8. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    Thank you, James. I'm OK with being disagreed with. But it helps if the disagreer at least gets my views right.
     
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    Answering this will take more time than I have now. I have to get back to work. But I still don't see how you get to "undefiled physical body". I don't want to put words in your mouth. How did you scripturally reach that conclusion?
     
    #9 asterisktom, Sep 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2014
  10. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,873
    Likes Received:
    326
    I was not referring to you but the OP. I thought your post was well done.
     
  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    This is not, necessarily, a challenge for blessedwife, but for anyone who truly believes that my views are "gnostic". I would just like to ask: In what way?

    As a starting point I provide this site as reference to what gnostics believe:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm

    Hmm?
     
  12. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    76
    That's a pretty good intro, I've directed people there in the past.

    And you're welcome from the previous post. I can't count the number of times that accusation has come my way.

    Don't get too wound up about it.
     
  13. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    Yes, thanks for the reminder. I guess it is also payback. I used to head a couple of yahoo eschatology discussion groups back in the 90s and have on occasion thrown out Preterists from the group. So I can understand how I am coming across to some people.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Tom, you mentioned this in passing.
    I heard from somebody that in our resurrection boy we shall not have blood (I think he also said flesh, not sure).
    could you elaborate on that ?
    thanks.
    it's 1 a.m. where I am and I need to work in the morning.
    so I'll catch up later.
    thanks again.
     
  15. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37

    Not Tom but some thoughts.

    For the life (nephesh soul) > of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the (living) soul.

    Adam was not created incorruptible, immortal but from the ground with the breath of life (spirit) from God in his blood, thus, a living soul.

    Jesus, the son of Mary, the Son of God came into the world, just as Adam was created. Adam was the figure of him to come. Jesus was a living soul with what gave him life in his blood. That is how he was able to make a atonement for us. Jesus gave his life. Jesus poured out his soul. Jesus shed his blood. Jesus was dead.

    By the resurrection from the dead by God, the Father of him Jesus the once living soul whose life was in his blood became quickening Spirit. Jesus born of Mary, resurrected from the dead, became the author of eternal salvation. Heb 5:9 His life (soul) was no longer in his blood. He was flesh and bone quickening spirit, life. Life was in himself. John 5:29 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17 If Christ has not been raised from the dead, incorruptible, there has been no atonement for the soul.

    Contrary to what Ton believes the following presently can only be speaking of Jesus of whom the first man Adam was the figure thereof.

    1 Cor 15: 45,46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth John 5:26 first part.
    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

    God the Father gave Jesus glory at the resurrection, the same glory that we are joint heirs thereof with Jesus.
     
  16. beameup

    beameup
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    2
    For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house G3613 oikētērion which is from heaven: 2 Cor 5:2

    And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own
    habitation,
    G3613 oikētērion he hath reserved in everlasting chains under
    darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    Jude 6

    The angels (sons of God) that "left their first estate" gave up their glorified bodies
    to come to earth and copulated with human women to produce hybrid nephilim. Genesis 6:1-4
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    This is an absolute joke in regard to exegesis! 1 Corithians 15:1-11 is entirely devoted to provide eye witnesses to prove that the physical body of Jesus Christ came up out of the grave = resurrection. It has no bearing on the METAPHRORICAL body of Christ the church!! The gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 is not about the death and burial of the metaphorical body of Christ but of the literal physical body of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 15:12-19 applies the individual personal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ as the whole basis for the future hope of the physical bodily resurrection of the individual saint, especially for those saints which have already PHYSICALLY DIED.

    Physical death is in view and that is why he says if there be no resurrection as illustrated in the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ then there is no hope for the saints who have already PHYSICALLY DIED. We are yet in our sins, because if there is no physical bodily resurrection then sin has not been paid for and death still reigns.

    To insert the metaphorical body of Christ into this context is inexcusable and outright heretical as Paul clearly states that such who deny the physical bodily resurrection are FALSE WITNESSES, and remember that to be an apostle one had to be an EYE WITNESS of his physical resurrected body NOT A SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION OF A METAPHORICAL body of Christ!!!!
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Sep 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2014
  18. JamesL

    JamesL
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    76
    Partly from understanding Romans 5 as referring to physical death and resurrection. I went to a bible study once about 15 years ago. The guy hosting it had a doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary, and I was a devotee of Walvoord, Ryrie and the gang.

    I thought this was gonna be something special. Until he started this nonsense about "age" life. Aeon life. He had come to the conclusion that every single person, ever born, would go to Gehenna at death. Then every person would have aeon life.

    I asked him very straightforward and unfiltered, "wait a minute...you guys aren't some kind of Universalist cult, are you?!?"

    He laughed and said they'd been called a cult before.

    In short, he was a Universalist masquerading as an Evangelical. And he used Romans 5:18 as his proof text. I was answering the best I knew how, but I also recognized that my answers were insufficient.

    So I began to study. I could not get around the fact that he was right. There's a universal application in Rom 5. I also saw a striking similarity between Rom 5:12-21 and 1Cor 15:21-22.

    Around the same time, I was really immersed in studying Gnostic heresies, early writings, etc.

    So I guess the short of it is that it was a cumulative thing, and my paradigm was adjusted.

    I started to see Romans 7-8, where Paul speaks of this body of death, the inner man and outer man, and how the Spirit will give life to our mortal body; also Peter and Paul referring to our body as a tent, John 1:14 saying that Jesus pitched His tent in our midst,

    Also seeing that Titus 3:5 and Matthew 19:28 both use palingenesia, born again. Paul said the washing of "regeneration" while Jesus was speaking of the "renewal" of all things, obviously at a later time.

    Honestly, it is so much more than just one chapter

    Then about 10 years ago, I started reading dissertations online. I read one on the resurrection which just about knocked my socks off. It was everything I was seeing in scripture x10.

    And in that thread I mentioned from a few months ago, I really started to bring together a full-fledged look into the scriptures. Have you read it? There's definitely more, too

    btw, I'm not sure why the frowny face is at the top of this post, nor how it got there
     
    #18 JamesL, Sep 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2014
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    QUESTIONS:

    1. Is 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 about the spiritual resurrection of the metaphorical body of Christ the church OR is it about the physical bodily resurrection of Christ?

    2. Is 1 Corinthains 15:5-11 about witnesses of the spiritual resurrection of the metaphorical body of Christ the church OR about witnesses of the physical resurrected body of Christ?

    3. Is 1 Corinthians 15:12-13 and the repeated words "the dead" refer to the metaphorical body of Christ the church OR about the physical body of Christ that had actually died and the physical body of saints who have actually died?

    4. This context is about the resurrection of "the dead" is it not? What is "dead" and what has "died" that needs to be resurrected? He applies this to those "in Christ" who have physically died (sleep in Jesus) in verse 18. Why have they "perished" if there be no resurrection of "the dead"??? What aspect of those "in Christ" which sleep is still "dead"? Their spiri and soul OR their body???
     
    #19 The Biblicist, Sep 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2014
  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,293
    Likes Received:
    21
    Hi Pinoybaptist. BTW we will be heading for Cebu (and maybe a few other regions) in a few months.

    I also don't think we will have flesh and blood. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". It seems clear to me. What is your take on that verse?
     

Share This Page

Loading...