The Resurrection Repudiates justification by works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    Many other resurrection scriptures could be cited but the above proves that IN the resurrection the body of the saved puts on IMMORTALITY. This is glorification of the body.

    This occurs PRIOR to the judgement seat of Christ. Therefore, the judgement of Christ cannot determine eternal destination for those in glorified bodies.

    Neither can their works determine ultimate eternal destination but only their rewards in a glorified state in heaven.

    This completely repudiates the idea that the works of born again children of God determine heaven or hell or provide justification for eternal life when in fact we are already standing in His presence in a glorified condition.
     
  2. Crabtownboy

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    Show me your works and I will show you your faith.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Paul has an interesting take on "attaining to the resurrection of the dead".

    (Paul really wasn't much of a Calvinist as it turns out).

    Phil 3

    7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
    8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
    13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    1 Cor 9
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


    Paul wanted to be a "fellow partaker of IT" (The Gospel).


    He did not want to be disqualified from it.


    in Christ,


    Bob
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    No, you will not! YOu will only show the FRUITS/EVIDENCE of faith!
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    You are not much of an exegete or expositor of scripture. You seem to avoid immediate context.

    Verse 9 - His righteousness obtains justification
    Verse 10 - Power of his resurrection is introduced as post-salvation experience. He is now talking about the power of the Holy Spirit in living the Christian life over indwelling sin - this body of death.
    Verse 11 - introduces verses 12-15 and power over death - indwelling sin - in the Christian life. Sinless perfection is not claimed in the "resurrection out from the dead" condition of His fleshly state, or this "body of death" (Rom. 7:24) but only Spiritual Maturity by the power of the indwelling Spirit. By the power of the Holy Spirit there is progressive victory over indwelling sin/death that resides in the flesh.



    Another abuse of the immediate context. He is not attempting to become a partaker of the gospel through faith as He is already a partaker of it by faith at his conversion. He is referring to the day of rewards for faithful service. He wants to become a partaker of "the prize" for faithfully preaching it as in 1 Cor. 3:12-15. He wants "the prize" for faithfulness in service that occurs at the judgement seat AFTER already having been glorified in body in the resurrection BEFORE coming to the judgement seat.
     
  6. NetChaplain

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    Hi Biblicist - You've got some pretty good-looking articles and thanks be to the Lord Jesus for His teachings of the Word (1 Cor 2:13).

    I believe many are mistaken concerning doctrines related to works because of misunderstanding passages such as this: "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (Jam 2:24).

    The Greek word "justified" is 'dē-kī-o'-ō' (Strong's G1344) and is defined as: 1. to render one to be righteous. 2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous.

    As you may know, the latter definition is intended for "justified" in this content, because nothing a believer does (apart from choosing Christ) can produce justification and thus can only display it.

    "It is God that justifieth" (Rom 8:33) and thus works cannot bring about justification (as I know you're aware) because one must first be justified to produce "good works," which requires regeneration. The word justified here does mean 'to render (make, not just show as in the preceding usage) one righteous.'
     
  7. Jope

    Jope
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    I agree with a lot in your post.

    What's your take on apostate Christians?

    Here is an interesting verse (I'd like your thoughts on this one):

    "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him" (Acts 5:32, KJV).​

    We find that the apostate Christian doesn't have the Spirit:

    "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit" (Jude 1:19, KJV).​

    Also, have you ever read Lewis Chafer?
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    I agree with you view on apostate Christians - 1 Jn. 2:19
     
  9. NetChaplain

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    Hi Jope - Your question was directed to the Biblicist but I wanted to share my comment too because it's relevant inquiry.

    I believe one can only apostatize from a said-faith (Jam 2:18), which in profession only and is void of regeneration.
     
  10. Jope

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    Soteriology is quite the study. :p
     
  11. Jope

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    A dispensational suggestion would be that James was written to the Jewish Church (James 1:1) before the Church became Gentile and before the Jerusalem council forbade the law of Moses (Acts 15).

    It was the Jews that God placed the law of Moses on. This covenant was a conditional covenant, because it was based on man's work: "if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:" (Deut. 7:12, KJV, bold emphasis mine).

    Seeing as the Jews could not keep the law (Acts 15:10; Rom. 8:3), God revealed a different righteousness (Rom. 3:21-22).

    "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10, KJV).

    "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" (Rom. 8:3, KJV).

    "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" (Rom. 3:21-22, KJV).​

    Before, righteousness was by the law (Deut. 6:25; Luke 1:6). Now, the Church is not under the law, but under grace (Rom. 6:14-15).

    "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us" (Deut. 6:25, KJV).

    "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless" (Luke 1:6, KJV).

    "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Rom. 6:14-15, KJV). ​

    God has made the old covenant obsolete (Jer. 31:31-32; Heb. 8:13), and will make a new covenant with the Jews in the millennium (Ezek. 37:26; Jer. 31:31). Then the Jews will have the law of God written on their hearts.

    The reason why God has not written the law of God on the Church's hearts is because, for one reason, the Church has some people in it that don't have the knowledge of God (1Cor. 8:11; 15:34), while in the Jeremiah passage, we find that all shall know the LORD, from the least to the greatest (Jer. 31:34). We can see that this covenant has yet to be made and fulfilled to the Jew (the Church is distinct from Israel - 1Cor. 10:32).

    Here's some Lewis Chafer:

    http://bartimaeus.us/pub_dom/dispensationalism.html
     
    #11 Jope, Jun 8, 2013
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  12. The Biblicist

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    Yes it is! I will tell you another subject that is related to false professions and that is the conscience and its response to light in regard to "worldly sorrow" - 2 Cor. 7:10.

    I believe "worldly sorrow" is natural conviction of the conscience unaided by the power of the Holy Spirit. Conviction can come from a variety of sources (social trained conscience, Bible conviction, religious trained conscience violated, etc.). Worldly sorrow will respond by seeking a solution to remove the pricking of the conscience:

    1. Silence it by repeating the sin - searing it
    2. Silence it by appeasing it
    a. reformation appeasment
    b. religious appeasment
    c. Philosophical appeasment
    3. Respond by deep depression
    4. suicides - Judas

    I believe the wounded conscience is the source of most of the world's religions, demoninations, philosophies and false professors.
     
  13. NetChaplain

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    I believe the reference in this passage is that those who left the group of disciples were never disciples themselves, which is denoted by, "they were not of us."

    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Yep, that is clear as a Montana sky on a cold cloudless night.
     
  15. NetChaplain

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    Nice reply - The phrase "it shall be our righteousness" can be paraphrased as, "It shall be a mercy, benefit, and blessing to us. The thought can be that they will be righteous for their obedience, which is a misunderstanding.

    One rule-of-thumb I've learned about righteousness and justification (which I think you agree) is that it can only come by Christ "through faith" (Eph 2:8) in His work only, because concerning the Law, or any works, "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God" (Gal 3:11).

    Thus the OT saints believed in Christ through types and shadows of Christ's atonement shown them of the Prophets, which actualized in the NT. This is why righteousness and justification is always "imputed" and never produced.

    In being in Christ's righteousness, the primary concept for the believer has to do with the internal holiness of the heart, in which the believer's attitude and ultimate desires and works are always to please God, because of the Holy Spirit's continual prompting (Gal 5:17; Phil 2:13).

    Concerning Luke 1:6, I would like to share what John Gill commented (which contains some of this material) and I apologize for its length:

    "And they were both righteous before God",.... Not as the Pharisees, only righteous before men, but in the sight of God, who sees the heart, and whose judgment is according to truth; and therefore were not justified by the deeds of the law; for by them no man can be justified in the sight of God; but were made righteous through the righteousness of Christ, by which the saints were made righteous before the coming of Christ, as those after it: see Acts 15:11.

    "God beheld them in His Son, as clothed with that righteousness He engaged to bring in and as cleansed from all sin in that blood of His which was to be shed: and they appeared to Him, and in the eye of His justice, and according to His law, righteous persons: though this character may also regard the internal holiness of their hearts, and the truth and sincerity of grace in them: which God, who trieth the hearts and reins of the children of men, knew, took notice of, and bore testimony to.

    "As likewise their holy, upright walk and conversation before men, and which was observed by God, and acceptable to Him, though imperfect, as arising from a principle of grace, being performed in the faith and fear of Him, and with a view to His glory, and for the sake, and through the righteousness of His Son.

    "Walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord: this was not the matter of their righteousness before God, but the evidence of it before men: "by the commandments" are meant, all those that are of a moral nature, which regarded their duty to God and man, and which are comprehended in love to both.

    "And by "the ordinances of the Lord," are intended the injunctions and institutions of the ceremonial law, which is called the law of commandments, contained in ordinances, which, though now abolished, were then in force: and it was right and commendable in them to observe them (not perfectly because this only Christ could do - caption mine), who, by their "walking" in them, showed they loved them, both one and the other; esteemed them, concerning all things to be right; and had respect to them all, and observed them, and took pleasure in walking in them, which, by the grace of God, they continued to do; for walking not only shows that these commands and ordinances were a way marked out for them, but in which they took pleasure, and made progress.

    "And were "blameless; not that they were without sin, as none are; and it appears from this chapter that Zacharias was not, see Luke 1:20 but they were so in the sight of God; as they were justified by the righteousness of Christ, so they were without fault before the throne, and unreproveable before God."​
     
  16. Jope

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    Hm. I never linked worldly sorrow with an untrained conscience. Interesting though.

    Here's something you may find interesting:

    A man's conscience can be pricked according to the dispensation he trains it with.

    We find that David's conscience wouldn't prick him when he went to war:

    1 Samuel 25 ESV, bold emphasis mine
    30 And when the Lord has done to my lord according to all the good that he has spoken concerning you and has appointed you prince over Israel, 31 my lord shall have no cause of grief or pangs of conscience for having shed blood without cause or for my lord working salvation himself. And when the Lord has dealt well with my lord, then remember your servant.”

    However, in this present dispensation of grace, we find that our conscience would prick us when we read 2 Corinthians 10:3-4, for we are not to wage war after the flesh.

    2 Corinthians 10 ESV, bold emphasis mine
    3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.​


    So...If a man trains his conscience to be pricked according to the wrong dispensation, like the Mosaic dispensation, he is going to feel unneeded guilt.
     
    #16 Jope, Jun 8, 2013
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  17. Jope

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    It wasn't a misunderstanding to the Jews, for that's what was revealed to them through their scriptures. It was revealed that if they observed the law of Moses, they would have their kingdom (Deut 28:1; 15:5-6; Ex. 19:5-6).

    The Jews were wanting the kingdom of God to come without their acknowledging the fact that the Messiah had to rule over it. For it had been said, by the Lord, that they wanted to take away His (Christ's) inheritance, and make it theirs (Lk 20:14; John 11:47-53). They had learned Moses so well: So well to know that if they were to be pious, the Kingdom would come (Deut 28:1; 15:5-6; Ex. 19:5-6). The Land that had been sworn of God to be given to them (Gen. 17:8; Ps 105:9-11) would only be given by observance of that law (Deut 7:12-13; Jer 11:4-5). "He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come" (Luke 17:20, KJV), but could not see that their Messiah whom Moses wrote about (John 5:46-47) governing the Kingdom of God would be needed for that Kingdom (Numbers 24:7). They had rejected the one that came in the Father's name (John 5:43), "what [more] could have been done" (Isa. 5:4, KJV)? The signs that the Jews required (1Cor 1:22; Ex. 4:1-9, 30-31; Judges 2:10-11) had been done (John 12:37-41, Acts 2:22). No doubt the kingdom of God was in their midst (Luke 17:20-21).

    Acts 26 KJV
    6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?​

    If their piety would attain to that which was described in the Mosaic law, their kingdom would come, and this resurrection to bring them into the land of Israel too (Ezek. 37).

    They couldn't attain to that righteousness though (Rom. 8:3).

    When God gave them Christ, they rejected Him, and sought their own righteousness by works of the law of Moses still (Rom. 10:3). It was by Christ that the kingdom would come. When His law is written on the heart of Israel (Jer. 31:31-34), their righteousness will be valid to enter into the kingdom of God. There is a distinction from the righteousness of the law of Moses and the righteousness by the faith of Christ (Rom. 3:21-22; 10:5-6).
     
    #17 Jope, Jun 8, 2013
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  18. Jope

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    Concerning Gill's first paragraph here, I think that the Luke 1:6 statement was describing the righteousness that they had because, although they weren't sinless (Rom. 3:10), they still observed that part of the Mosaic law that had provision for sin (the sin offering(s)).

    I gotta go to work now though. I enjoy the talk. Maybe I'll write more later (Godwilling!).
     
  19. Jope

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    That's true that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.

    This righteousness by faith in Christ wasn't revealed in ages past though. Not until the dispensation of grace (Rom. 3:21-22).

    That's why Christ had to preach to those saints in Hades (John 5:24-29; 1Pet. 4:6).

    Although no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, a man that was not sinless was a man after God's own heart, and since He had such a high obedience of the law of Moses, the kingdom of God was at its peak during his and his son's reign. I think you know who I am speaking of (David and Solomon).
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    God is immutable, and the God that sent him to war is the same God we now serve. David was a ruler of a nation and God still leads nations into war now as then and it is no sin then or now. Do you think it is a sin to kill an intruder into your home that is attempting to kill your children? Do you think it is a sin to be a Christian police to protect your city and enforce justice if necessary by force? God still uses nations as policeman to chasten ungodly nations.

    2 Cor. 10:3-4 does not deal with justice and nations going to war against oppressive and ungodly nations. It deals with PERSONAL vindication of yourself as a Christian.

    David as an individual had no more right to violate 2 Cor. 10:3-4 then as we do now.
     

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