The Salvation Issue

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by jprieto, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. jprieto

    jprieto
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    In visiting several local churches to cast people for a christian film I will be producing very soon, on several occasions my assistants got into arguments with members of those churches on the subject of whether or not one can lose salvation.

    Personally I feel that REAL repentance, and the ACCEPTANCE of the grace of God, and a BELIEF in Jesus Christ ..... should secure a seat in Heaven, and allow a life with such assurance.

    But, this post is a request for other members to share with me Bible verses that ONCE AND FOR ALL can be used by me in dealing with future comfrontations on this matter.

    A local church, Maranatha, has offered to prove their point of view (that one can lose salvation) with a list of verses they will present to me by this Monday. So I need clarity on this issue, and powerful verses, to shield myself during this meeting.

    I notice that most churches whose name does NOT contain the word "Baptist" in it share the view of "salvation can be lost".

    I shared Eph 2:8,9 -- but to them it is not enough.

    Thanks

    ps: in case you're wondering why i am using them at all in my film, it is simply cause whenever I approach local baptist churches to get involved in the film, members always tell me that they will put it in prayer and get back to me -- imagine that! An evangelistic film and they have to put it in prayer and get back to me. Wow. So after 4 1/2 month of waiting I went to other non-denomination churches and they shouted "halleluya!!" and made themselves available for the project. I've already done 3 indies before, but once I got right with God, I decided to make films of evangelistic nature ONLY as of this past Nov 2007.
     
    #1 jprieto, Sep 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2008
  2. skypair

    skypair
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    jprieto,

    Salvation CAN be lost --- if they are talking about our temporal experience of it.

    In every citation I am aware of where it appears that salvation was lost, it is in the earthly sanctification sense of salvation -- NOT in the eternal justification sense.

    One of those critical passages to their argument is Heb 6:1-8 but what they miss is that "thorns and briers" are earthly representatives of apostates for whom the kingdom of Christ has no further use. Doesn't mean they aren't saved.

    In fact, 1Cor 3:15 says, "...he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." Here's what you have to get across to these "salvation-losers" -- we are saved "in Christ" in 2 ways: 1) our soul is eternally justified and reconciled to God by His death AND 2) our spirits are progressively saved, "sanctified," throughout this life by living His life (if we do so, that is) Rom 5:10.

    There are 3 things that could cause us to not live His life: 1) cares of this world, 2) living what some man has taught us ought to be our life in Christ, or 3) not knowing enough about Christ and the Word to be able to live His life.

    I think it is critical to point out to them too that living the life is no guarantee of salvation since the life can be lived (Rom 2:14-15) by those who are NOT justified and reconciled to God! If they are just using Christ as a "Life Example" and not as a Savior first, they CAN lose all the salvation they really have!

    skypair
     
  3. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    How about Romans 8:29 All those whom God called, he justified. Without exception.

    All those whom he justified will be glorified. Without exception. All.

    All.

    Then Romans 11:29 for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    Tie the gifts to Romans 6:23 (...the gift of God is eternal life)
    Tie the calling to 8:29.

    With regard to our salvation, God does not take it back.
     
  4. Reformer

    Reformer
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    1 John 5:13
    These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[a] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God

    Philippians 1:6
    being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ

    Acts 13:48
    Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


    1 Peter 1:5
    who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1 John 5:13
    These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God


    Hebrews 7:25
    Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    Jeremiah 32:40
    And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.


    2 Thessalonians 3:3
    But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.


    Hebrews 12:2
    looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    2 Timothy 2:13
    If we are faithless,
    He remains faithful;
    He cannot deny Himself.

    John 10:28
    And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.



    Deuteronomy 31:6
    Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the LORD your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.”


    Psalm 138:8
    The LORD will perfect that which concerns me;
    Your mercy, O LORD, endures forever;
    Do not forsake the works of Your hands.


    John 3:15
    that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

    There more but this is enough for anyone who is willing to believe the Scriptures.:laugh:



    And to the Baptist who deny this doctrine this is form the Baptist Confession of Faith.

     
  5. ReformedBaptist

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    So many churches are bankrupt in theology. Sad to see...
     
  6. Marcia

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    Are these churches pentecostal or charismatic? Many of them believe you can lose your salvation.

    Pentecostal churches or come out of the holiness/Wesleyan tradition (and so does the Nazarene Church, which is not Pentecostal) and so have this view that one can lose their salvation.
     
  7. jprieto

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    Wow, thanks

    Thank you all for your teachings. I was saved as a teenager and was involved in the church -- during that age period I did not record much of the important verses in my mind -- but this past November I decided to come back and grow in knowledge of biblical principles.

    Your replies gives me much to digest -- now I just have to wait til Monday to see WHICH verses they throw back at me. Of that I cannot really wait. Whichever ones I get stuck with I will share them here for clarification.

    Does anyone know of a site dedicated to this subject?

    One of the members of that church is a lovely lady who is funding my film -- and I would love to get her a book on the subject -- anyone knows of the ideal book on this subject I can give her?

    Interesting thing is that since they believe in a life without assurance of salvation, they live very devout lives, consecrated in their faith, and very loving towards others.

    Nevertheless, if they are wrong in biblical principles, I hear the call to place them in the right path.

    *****************************************************************
    Here in Miami it is so hard to tell which denomination a church is -- they seem to just call themselves the ABC CHURCH, THE LIGHT, etc -- very generic names without any indication of what they stand for.

    Just hope that baptist churches don't follow this lead -- sorry if this offend a baptist church here that does not share this view.
    *****************************************************************

    See you all Monday night !!

    til then -- stand watch, for nobody knows the day or the hour when he will come
     
  8. JDale

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    This issue has been hashed and rehashed here -- ad nauseum. Contrary to what many here might tell you, GOOD Christians can disagree on this issue -- it is NOT a "fundamental" of the Christian Faith, nor is it a necessary tenant of Baptist beliefs. I am a Baptist, and an Arminian (I believe in the possibility of apostasy, or, that someone can "forfeit" or "make shipwreck" of faith -- the word "lose would not be Biblically accurate).

    On the other hand, many of our good brothers here have provided you with ample scriptures to affirm the idea of assurance of salvation. Indeed, ALL Baptists can affirm that as an important element of the Christian Life. No responsible or knowledgeable Biblical Christian would teach that a Christian is "eternally insecure" in their salvation.

    In short, differing on these beliefs need not be a reason to shun fellowship with other believers. Neither does believing differently about this issue necessarily demonstrate that a church is "bankrupt in theology." While believers may differ strongly on this issue, there are many more important issues that should unite us -- like giving glory to God, and reaching out to the lost souls of mankind.

    JDale
     
  9. Aaron

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    The verses I would use have already been posted.

    God has not chosen exhibitionistic methods to spread the Gospel. He has chosen the foolishness of preaching. I commend the Baptists for seeking the Lord before jumping willy nilly on your band wagon. :)
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    If one can lose his salvation, one might pursue that with a question of two.

    What causes one to forfeit his salvation? Is it sin? If so, how many sins? One, a dozen, a specific sin?

    How does one know when he's lost it? Can you lose it and not know it? Do you wake up in the morning wondering if you're saved? Can you ever know for sure that you are going to heaven?

    If you lose it, can you ever get it back?

    Scripture, please, for your views.

    You aren't asking these questions to win debating points. You are asking them to defend their views and deal with the implications of their views.
     
  11. JDale

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    I agree with tom here. Many who believe people can "lose" salvation are NOT thoroughgoing orthodox Arminians (No, that's not a contradiction), but they are Semi-Pelagians, believing that somehow they are saved -- and/or stay saved by their own efforts, or good works, or by not sinning. This is a FALSE idea that makes salvation dependent on men, not God.

    JDale
     
  12. jshurley04

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    Losing equal lost according to Paul

    According to Paul if one could lose their salvation then the only remedy for them to regain their salvation is that Christ would have to be crucified again to allow them to have salvation. Since we know that Christ will not be crucified a second time then for one to lose their salvation would mean they would be eternally damned with no hope.
     
  13. John of Japan

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    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Rom. 8:38-39. To me this passage is the best in the whole Bible on this subject. Paul lists many things that cannot take us from the love of Christ, and then the last item is "or any other creature." That last item puts the last nail in the coffin of lost salvation. Even we ourselves cannot take ourselves away from God's love!! And that's the creature most people look to as the culprit for lost salvation--themselves.

    A similar passage is John 10:27-29. No one and nothing can take us out of the Father's hand. I'll sometimes illustrate this by having a child try to take a coin out of my hand. I'm much stronger, so of course this is impossible for the child. God is all-powerful, so it is impossible for anyone to take us out of His hand! He can keep us forever.

    Another powerful argument I used to convince a Methodist once is that of John 3:5-8. When we are born again, we are born into God's family. Humanly speaking, I will have my father's blood until I die. I will never cease being a part of my human family, no matter what I do. Spiritually speaking, the blood of Christ cleansed me from all sin, and made me a part of God's family. Once I am a part of God's family, nothing can take me away!
     
  14. Tom Butler

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    Oh wow, John, this is good stuff.
     
  15. HankD

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    John 10
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.

    How long is eternity?
    What is the meaning of never?
    Who is able to pluck us out of God the Father's hand?

    HankD​
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    These are precious passages to me. :jesus:

    I notice that Reformer posted 1 John 5:13, another of my favorites. Here's how I use that. It says we may know (have assurance) that we "have eternal life," present tense. Eternal life is not something that starts in our future. We already have it as soon as we are saved. And eternal life is not something you can misplace, like a TV remote. It is permanent. After we are saved we will never die spiritually, and I'm sure you can think of good passages on that. So, what we think of death is merely the physical body ceasing to function. The spirit and soul of the saved person goes immediately to Heaven, and how can that be death?
     
    #16 John of Japan, Sep 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2008
  17. skypair

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    One of Dr Rogers "Rogerisms" (when he died, someone published an 8 page collection of his sayings) was this quote: "If you could be saved and not know it [via "election"], you could lose it and not miss it."

    skypair
     
  18. Rippon

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    Do you know of a single Calvinist who espouses that one can be saved and yet not know it?
     
  19. Amy.G

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    Pinoybaptist.
     
  20. Rippon

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    He insists he is not a Calvinist.
     

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