The Science of Textual Criticism, Is It Important?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Craigbythesea, Mar 6, 2005.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    I came upon an Islamic website today that provides vast resources for refuting both the claims and teaching of Christianity and the Bible upon which it is grounded. I must admit that I was amazed by the thoroughness of their refutation of the Bible, especially that portion of it that deals with the science of textual criticism and it application to the text of the New Testament and its sources. Indeed, it discusses the individual papyri, the dating of them, and even their individual contents, listing them and discussing them one by one. And they quote in detail Christian scholars and their conflicting views regarding details of New Testament textual Criticism. They also provide a bibliography for the study the textual criticism of the Qur'an with many of the entries going back to the 13th and 14th centuries. This website follows up their bibliography for the study the textual criticism of the Qur'an with this paragraph:

    They also include this request:

    Individuals of the Islamic faith are studying the Bible on the same level that it is studied in our finest Baptist seminaries and making the results of their scholarship known to Muslims around the world, including the United States and other Western countries. If our pastors don’t hit the books and study the science of textual criticism so that they have a firm foundation for why they favor one variant reading in the Bible over another, those of the Islamic faith will be able to discredit them right and left and make them appear to be very ignorant of the very Scriptures that they preach from the pulpit. Those pastors who maintain the KJO mentality will find themselves the subject of disdain and ridicule in their own churches. And as the Islamic laymen take advantage of their educational websites and learn how to refute the Christian faith and the Bible upon which it is grounded, we shall be in trouble if our own laymen don’t get more serious about our Bible and the Hebrew and Greek texts that it is translated from. The Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the inspired word of God, but they don’t have their heads stuck in the sand, and we shouldn’t either.


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  2. mioque

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    In a sense it works both ways.
    There is a whole movement of Western Islamologists who are certain that something like 90% of those Hadith (the traditional sayings/actions of Mohammed that have in a practical sense a greater influence on Islam than the Quran) that are considered very reliable by Moslim scholars were invented after the death of Mohammed. Sometimes a couple of centuries afterwards.
     
  3. rsr

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    Indeed it does.

    Have you run across the book by "Christoph Luxenberg" (pseudonym for a German professor) asserting that a good part of the Qur’ān has been improperly interpreted because of its Syriac, not Arabic, roots?

    (It's Die syro-aramaeische Lesart des Koran; Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Qur’ānsprache and as far as I know is available only in German.)

    In Hugoye: Journal of Syriac Studies, Robert R. Phenix and Cornelia B. Horn write that:

    The bit that got the most press was Luxenberg's assertion that the infamous "virgins" in paradise resulted from a mistranslation of the Syriac for "white grapes."

     
  4. El_Guero

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    And ... ?
     
  5. El_Guero

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    I find that statement hard to believe.

    I do not agree that Islamists studying the the Bible can be compared to Christians (that happen to be at Baptist institutions) studying the Bible as the Word of God.
     
  6. Ransom

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    Craigbythesea said:

    I must admit that I was amazed by the thoroughness of their refutation of the Bible, especially that portion of it that deals with the science of textual criticism and it application to the text of the New Testament and its sources.

    James White has been blogging frequently about this very subject since December. Look for the posts about "Islamic Apologetics and New Testament Transmission," in order, here, here, here, then here. Don't forget that since it's a blog, to read from the bottom up.
     
  7. mioque

    mioque
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    RSR
    "Have you run across the book by "Christoph Luxenberg" (pseudonym for a German professor) asserting that a good part of the Qur’a¯n has been improperly interpreted because of its Syriac, not Arabic, roots?"
    "
    I only heard about as much about this fellow and his work as you posted.
     
  8. Spoudazo

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    Have you ever read their textual criticsm "skills," it's rather sad. . .rather pathetic.

    Go here for an example, it's one of the "blogs" here where Dr. White refutes some Islamic "scholarship."

    www.aomin.org
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    Some of it is trash; some of it is excellent. I was not speaking of that which is trash, but of that which is excellent. And I certainly was not speaking of these silly “blogs.”

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  10. El_Guero

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    Craig,

    We have your statement that Islam is refuting:

    Are you Muslim? I am a Christian. The Muslims have not refuted the Word of God.
     
  11. Spoudazo

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    Some of it is trash; some of it is excellent. I was not speaking of that which is trash, but of that which is excellent. And I certainly was not speaking of these silly “blogs.”

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Why "silly" blogs, White's points are valid.

    I suppose you have an alternative motive to posting your original post? :confused:
     
  12. Bro. James

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    Apologetics 101: If Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, crucified, buried and resurrected, all these other folks who are trying to climb some other way, climb in vain--their ladder does not go up. Jesus is either who He says He is, or He is the greatest imposter to beguile mankind.

    Be careful doing battle with satanic forces--Satan knows more scripture than we. Only Jesus has succeeded in overcoming Satan by overcoming the world.

    The Stoics and Epicureans could not refute the Word from the Apostle Paul on Mars Hill. The Truth cannot be refuted--by definition. There is no such thing as a "little truth" scattered amongst all the religions of the world. You have "the elect, the pillar and ground of The Truth-- the rest are "thieves and robbers". There is only One Way, One Truth and One Life. How does one debate that? That is either true or false. If false, Jesus is a phony. All of world history pivots on Jesus (Immanuel), not Allah or Mohammed.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. icthus

    icthus
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    Some of it is trash; some of it is excellent. I was not speaking of that which is trash, but of that which is excellent. And I certainly was not speaking of these silly “blogs.”

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Well, well, well! What have we here? This is the same "Craig" that has been trying to refute my indepth grammatical study of 1 John 5:7, without ever answering any of my questions. And, here he is playing devils advocate about Isalimic "scholarship"!

    Lets get one thing very claer from the very start. ON ONE, and I really mean NO ONE, will EVER be able to "prove" any portion of Scripture in the original to be in error. As the apostle Paul says in the first chapter of Galatians, that even an angel from heaven were to come down and tell me that the original Bible contained errors, I would say: "Satan be gone"!!! I have 100% assurance, that the original of both the Old and New Testaments, are completely without any error, that is, infallible, and inerrant, and can be trusted as being 100% the Word of Almighty God! For anyone to even suggest that there are errors in Scripture, as do the likes of Clark Pinnock, Daniel Fuller, etc, they have been deceived by the father of lies himself! I have 100% confidence in the Holy Bible, not because some scholar tells me so, or that some new "evidence" has come to light on the Bible, but, because it is the Word of Almighty God, and is Unique in every sense. No other "book" from any other "faith" can ever be compared to the Holy Bible, as it ALONE is the Word of God! All other works have to be considered as the word of the devil!

    No "evidence" as produced by these so-called Musilim "scholars" will ever show in any way that there is any error in the Holy Bible, as they lack the most important element in sound scholarship, the Holy Spirit. It is He, and He alone Who is able to lead us into the "Truth", and He can never contradict what He has ensured is written in the Holy Bible! As Christian scholars can only have the Holy Spirit teaching them, therefore their scholrship is unmatched by any others, even they may be the very best in the world!

    Christians should never concern themselves with the attacks of the Word of God by the world, as these are attemts by the enemy to try to undermine the authority of the Holy Bible, as Unique. Just as Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to heaven, whereby all others who claim to be "a way" are nothing but deceivers and from the devil; likewise, the Holy Bible alone is to be accepted as being the only, final authority, as being the direct Word of God to mankind! All so-called "problems" with various readings are what I would call, paradoxes, and never contradictions!

    Let me assure you brothers and sisters, put you trust 100% in the Holy Bible, as you know that it is the only Word from Almighty God to us humans, and because God is the author of the originals, we have the assurance that we can trust the Holy Bible!
     

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