The Second Coming !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    1 Thess 4:15-17



    At the Second Coming of Christ, the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with the voice of an Arch Angel, this voice of the Arch Angel is important because it links the OT Saints with the Second Coming here being described, this Arch Angel was associated with the Saints in the OT i.e Daniel 10:13,21

    13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    Dan 12:1

    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    For He had a special Responsibility for the Saints in that Nation. So at the Second Coming the dead in Christ shall rise first which will include all who died in faith since the beginning of the world, for even the OT Saints had their faith as the NT Saints in the Blood of Christ Rom 3:24-25

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Which blood bought the Church Acts 20:28

    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Remember what God told His People in the OT Jer 3:15

    And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

    Eph 4:11-12

    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


    Well God was fulfilling that Promise , and this connects the OT Saints and NT Saints together and as being the Church of God, which He purchased with His own Blood ! Also by the presence of Moses [The Law and Elijah [The Prophets] on the Mt of Transfiguration it is recorded that while there, they spoke to Christ about what ? About His death He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem, this indicates that they were aware of their interest along with their believing contemporaries ! Lk 9:30-31

    30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

    31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

    So the dead in Christ that shall rise first will include Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, along with Jeremiah and Paul and Stephen, Silas,m Timothy, Titus, and Abel,m Seth, Ruth and on and on, and of course the Living Saints at this time will be caught up to meet them and the Lord in the air, for then cometh to past what was anticipated here Matt 25:1-13. Now the mentioning of the Voice of the Archangel, whom is Christ Himself, His Voice, shows us that the Church, His Bride were, all believing from all generations from the beginning of the World, and Now is the Day of Judgment spoken of here Rev 11:18

    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    Also many false teachers have attempted to separate the event of the second coming of Christ described in 1 Thess:13-18 and that Day of the Lord in view in the same letter and context of that in 1 Thess 5:1-11; however we must remember the chapter divisions of the epistle are not inspired ! So the dreaded day of the Lord

    Isa 13:6,9

    Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

    Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

    Joel 2:11

    And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    Rev 6:17

    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    So this Day and the Day that the Saints are caught up in the air to meet the Lord, are all the same event, if we do not believe it now, we will when it happens !
     
  3. billwald

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    Wonder how many centuries it will take for dispensationalists to change their eschatology? What will be preached in 3012?
     
  4. kyredneck

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    LOL! Good point.

    IMO, SBM's soteriology is sounder than most, his eschatology is just as messed up as most.
     
  5. kyredneck

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    'The Second Coming', where in the scripture do you derive this term? Is there ONLY TWO comings?
     
    #5 kyredneck, Jul 19, 2012
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  6. reformed_baptist

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    There is an incranation, and a return, no others are mentioned as far as I can see :D
     
  7. kyredneck

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  8. kyredneck

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    Where in the scripture is the term 'second coming' derived?

    [edit to add] (I know where, does anyone else know?)

    [edit again] I'll rephrase the question:

    Where in the scripture is 'the notion of only two comings' derived?
     
    #8 kyredneck, Jul 19, 2012
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  9. savedbymercy

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    He came the first time to put away sin, and the second time to salvation ! Heb 9:28


    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
     
  10. kyredneck

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    This IS the passage! Those Hebrew Christians that looked for Him were also told:

    for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry Heb 10:37

    Were they disappointed? Did they not receive the deliverance they were promised?
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    how can a non blical view of justification qualify as being "sounder than most?"
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    kentucky

    All Christians Looked for Him, that is an effect of Converting Grace. It teaches The Believer this Titus 2:11-13

    11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Now the appearing here that these gentile believers were to expect, is the same appearing the Hebrew believers were to expect Heb 9:28

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    The looking in the Titus passage is present tense, so they were presently looking for that Glorious Appearance, but they died in Hope as did the jewish believers !

    Are you a preterist in some of your last time views ?
     
  13. kyredneck

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    So they were disappointed, He did tarry, His coming was not a ''very very little' while off, but actually thousands of years away (and still yet to happen). They did not get the deliverance promised them.
     
    #13 kyredneck, Jul 19, 2012
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  14. reformed_baptist

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    Well lets try and pick through some of those texts shall we?

    Luke 20:16 - in context clearly the Lord of the Vinyard is the father, not the son, and the Lord of the vinyard is the 'He' so this text is irrelevant a discusion of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ rather it speaks of God's judgement upon the Jews for their rejection of the saviour.

    Mark 13:26, 29-30 is decontextualised. Notice there is clear break in the arguement between v27 and v28, as for what things Jesus is refering to as being seen 'by this generation' in v30 - well I would suggest that he is talking about the destruction of the temple in AD70, I would also take the classical amillenial view that sees every generation going through typical tribulations and therefore take comfort that as the church suffers we now Jesus is returning soon! Remember 'soon' is realtive word!

    Mt 10:23 simply states that the gsopel work will go on until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ - have all the cities of Isreal been gone through yet?

    Mt 16:28 - so by your implied understanding the kingdom is here in all its glory and power already? Or, does this verse have something to do with the mount of transfiguration?

    Mt 26:64 - and they will!

    1 Cor 15 speaks of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    In short then I have to say that your question makes no sense because many of those texts are not talking about the second coming - indeed some of them are speaking about the Father, not the son :D
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    kyr

    No, they died in hope ! Just like any believer did who dies before the 2 nd coming !

    Thats according to you ! The revelation was given according to the Mind of God, not according to your mind !

    Thats Blasphemy. Are you a preterist in your view of the last things ?
     
  16. kyredneck

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    Father, Son, God, Jehovah, Christ, the LORD God. We're not talking of a bodily return here.

    So, you say this 'coming' is not the same as the 'coming' of 1 Cor 15:23,24. I agree.

    Whether it's Father, Son, God, Jehovah, Christ, Lu 20:16 'destroy these husbandmen give the vineyard unto others' is synonymous with Mt 8:12 'sons of the kingdom cast forth' is synonymous with Ro 11 'natural branches broken off wild branches grafted in is synonymous with Mt 13:41 'gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling' is synonymous with Mt 13:49 'sever the wicked from among the righteous' is synonymous with Mt 3:12 'thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor'. (and probably several others I've missed)

    Here it is 'contextualized':

    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
    27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
    28 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
    29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
    30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

    And you see a 'break' and an 'argument' here?

    Incidentally, v 27 'send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds' is synonymous with Lu 13:29 'they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God' is synonymous with Lu 20:16 'give the vineyard unto others' is synonymous with Mk 2:22 'put new wine into fresh wine-skins' is synonymous with Gen 9:27 'God enlarge Japheth let him dwell in the tents of Shem' is synonymous with Ro 11 'wild olive branches grafted in' and I could go on and on with these, see:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1548960&postcount=15

    Agree! Not the same 'coming' as 1 Cor 15:23,24.

    Are you amil, for real? What does classical amil do with this passage?:

    21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

    See posts #35 & 36:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933&highlight=great+tribulation#post1671933

    Actually, I see much of 'the Church' languishing under prosperity right now. I suppose that could be considered as suffering. Some 'adversity' could correct that pronto.

    He was speaking to His twelve disciples and gave them this charge:

    1 And he called unto him his twelve disciples, and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of disease and all manner of sickness.
    5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
    6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons: freely ye received, freely give.
    23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10

    You're amil and imply that it is not? What is Christ delivering up to the Father at His 'next coming', 1 Cor 15:24?

    The mount of transfiguration angle is a lame one:

    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
    28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

    Similar to:

    22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me.
    23 This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Jn 21
     
    #16 kyredneck, Jul 20, 2012
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  17. kyredneck

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    Cont.:

    No, they DID! These words were spoken to the high priest; it's interesting to note that Josephus records that Annas, father in law to Caiaphas, perished at Jerusalem AD 70.

    Gill on Matthew 26:64:

    Ver. 64. Jesus saith unto him, thou hast said,.... That is, thou hast said right; or as Mark expresses it, "I am", Mr 14:62, the Christ, the anointed of God, who was so from everlasting, and in time; being before the world was, installed into, and invested with the office of mediator; and in the fulness of time, anointed with the holy Spirit without measure: he might truly say he was the Messiah, since all the characters of him in the books of the prophets, met in him; and all the miracles he was to work in proof of his Messiahship were wrought by him: as also that be was the Son of God, not by creation, as angels and men; nor by adoption, as saints; nor as man, or in the human nature, in which he was the son of man, and not the Son of God; nor was he begotten as man, whereas he is called the only begotten Son, and the begotten of the Father; and was he the Son of God as man not the first, but the third person must be his Father; besides, he was the Son of God before his incarnation: nor as mediator neither; be was the Son of God, antecedent to his office as mediator; his sonship is distinct from it, is an illustration of it, and what puts virtue into it; but he is so as God, as a divine person, by natural and eternal filiation; being begotten of the Father in the divine essence, and of the same nature; and having the same perfections with him, and in all things equal to him; and is the sense in which he always affirmed God to be his Father, and himself to be his Son. For this phrase, "thou hast said", as answering to an affirmation, "I am", See Gill on "Mt 26:25". Now, though Christ had so fully answered to the adjuration, and so strongly affirmed himself to be the Messiah, the Son of God, yet he knew they would not believe; and therefore refers them to an after proof thereof, which whether they would or not, would oblige them to acknowledge the whole:

    nevertheless, I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of man, sitting at the right hand of power: the Vulgate Latin, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel, read "the power of God", as in Lu 22:69, though it is not absolutely necessary; for "power" designs God himself, who is all powerful; as appears by the creation of all things out of nothing, the upholding of all things in their being, the redemption of men, the conversion of sinners, and the preservation of his saints. In the Jewish writings {e}, God is frequently called, hrwbgh, "the power": such a thing, say they, we have heard, hrwbgh ypm, "from the mouth of power", or might; that is, from God himself: and so he is by the Grecians called dunamiv, "power" {f}: by "the son of man", is meant Christ in the human nature; who then appeared at their bar as a mere man, in a very despicable form and condition, but hereafter they should see him in a more glorious one, and at "the right hand of God": a phrase expressive of his exaltation, above all creatures whatever: respect is had to the prophecy of him in Ps 110:1. "Sitting" there, denotes his having done his work; and his continuance in his exalted state, until all enemies are subdued under him: and when he says they should "see" him, his meaning is not, that they should see him at the right hand of God with their bodily eyes, as Stephen did; but that they should, or at least might, see and know by the effects, that he was set down at the right hand of God; as by the pouring forth of the holy Spirit upon his disciples, on the day of pentecost; by the wonderful spread of his Gospel, and the success of it, notwithstanding all the opposition made by them, and others; and particularly, by the vengeance he should take on their nation, city, and temple; and which may be more especially designed in the next clause;

    and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mt 24:27. Though this may also be understood of Christ's second coming to judgment, at the last day; when as he went up to heaven in a cloud, he will return, and come also in the clouds of heaven; see Ac 1:9 Re 1:7, when he will be seen by the eyes of all, good and bad; and when this sanhedrim, before whom he now was, will see him also, and confess that he is Lord and Christ, and the Son of God. Though the former clause seems to have regard to what would quickly come to pass, and what they should soon observe, and be convinced of; for ap' arti, rendered "hereafter", may be translated "henceforwards"; or as it is in the Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions, "from this time"; meaning, that in a very little while, they should begin to see the effects of his being set down at the right hand of God, and which would be full proofs of it, and should see him come in the clouds of heaven, at the last day: reference seems to be had to Da 7:13, where one like unto the son of man is said to come in the clouds of heaven, and which is understood of the Messiah by many, both of the ancient and modern Jews {g}: with whom one of his names is "Anani" {h}, which signifies "clouds"

    Agree.

    Did you notice that the Son of man is coming into his kingdom in Mt 16:28, and in 1 Cor 15:23,24 He is delivering up the kingdom? The kingdom in 1 Cor 15:23,24 has already been, Christ has already been reigning, then cometh the end.

    Well actually all the texts except 1 Cor 15:23,24 are referring to 'the second coming' of Hebrews 9:28 / 10:37.

    One, the vineyard parable. And 1 Cor 15:23,24 (the 'next coming') does make a clear distinction between Father and Son.

    for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, Col 2:9

    Father, Son, God, Jehovah, Christ, the LORD God. We're not talking of a bodily return here:

    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21
     
    #17 kyredneck, Jul 20, 2012
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  18. Yeshua1

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    So when did jesus actually have His Second Coming?
     
  19. kyredneck

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    Is this like asking me if He came on a cloud or a bolt of lightning or a white horse?

    20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
    23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
    24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
    25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

    He reigns now.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1695430#post1695430
    (you're all over this one JF)
     
    #19 kyredneck, Jul 20, 2012
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  20. Yeshua1

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    when did the resurrection of the dead saints and those alive in him happen?
     

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