Featured The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches

Continued from previous post!

The Apostle Paul in his defense before Felix, the Roman governor in Caesaera [Acts 24:10ff], also declares that there shall be a resurrection of both the just and unjust.

Acts 24:14,15, KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

In the passage above speaks of a resurrection, singular, not plural, a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. According to the Apostle Paul there will be one general resurrection and judgment. That there will be a general judgment is also shown by the events depicted in the Book of Revelation following the sound of the seventh and last trumpet

Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

In Verse 18 above we read: thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. This passage clearly teaches a general judgment of both the just and the unjust after the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet.

It is true that in the passage from 1 Thessalonians Paul does say the dead in Christ shall rise first. However, he is writing to the Saints at Thesalonica who are concerned about the fate of those who died prior to the return of Jesus Christ. That the Apostle allays their concern is shown by examining the full passage concerning the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, KJV
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We see that Paul is simply teaching that Jesus Christ will bringing the souls of the deceased Saints with Him when He returns and that the bodies of dead believers shall be resurrected before live believers are changed. This passage says nothing about a ‘secret rapture’; rather we see that Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. That trump of God is the seventh and last trumpet as shown in the above passage from Revelation, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, and in Matthew 24:29-31. The fate of the unbeliever is irrelevant to Paul’s message of consolation to the believer.

Again, there is not one passage of Scripture which teaches that the Church will be removed from the earth prior to any ‘great tribulation’. The concept of the ‘secret rapture’ of the Church refutes the teaching of Jesus Christ concerning the triumph of the Church. When Jesus Christ announced the Church, He said:

Matthew 16:17-18, KJV
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus Christ will build His Church and the gates of hell or hades will not defeat it. Before His ascension Jesus Christ presented the ‘great commission’ saying:

Matthew 28:16-20, KJV
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

This passages teaches the triumph of the Church, not its removal in a secret rapture. Jesus Christ consistently teaches that His followers, the Church, will suffer tribulation on this earth. Nowhere does He teach that they would escape tribulation. In fact He encourages them with these words:

John 16:33, KJV
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Paul writes in a similar vein to the Church at Rome.

Romans 8:35-37, KJV
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The history of God’s people throughout the Bible is not that they will escape tribulation. Rather the history is one of suffering. If the history of God’s people is one of suffering it is also that God does not abandon His people but is with them during their suffering. Frequently, suffering of God’s people is the result of their own sin, but often the only explanation for their suffering is that God in His sovereign purpose allows it, even as Jesus Christ teaches His disciples in the following passage:

John 9:2,3, KJV
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

In summary Scriptural teaching on the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is:

The Church, as witness to the salvation of God, will remain on earth until the return of Jesus Christ and will endure whatever tribulation God allows. That tribulation may increase in intensity as the end approaches.

At a time known only to the Triune God, Jesus Christ will return in all the power and glory of the Godhead, bringing with Him the souls of the dead in Christ.

On this Last Day there will be a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust, consistent with Biblical teachings that the dead in Christ shall rise first.

The risen dead in Christ and the transformed believers will join the Lord Jesus Christ in the air where the union of the souls of the dead in Christ and their resurrected bodies will occur. The glory Church, the Church triumphant, the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem, will then accompany the Lord Jesus Christ to the new earth [Revelation 21:2].

At this time the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20:11-15] will occur.

As the consequence of the judgment the true believers, the elect of God, will enjoy eternity in the new heavens and the new earth in the presence of the Triune God.

As the further consequence of the judgment Satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire, forever separated from the glory of God.​

 

We know what "the hour will come" means, in English.

Aside from that, Rev. 20 is painfully obvious in its timetable, completely demolishing the pretrib cRapture bunk.

 

Given the vast number of translations of the Bible available at the present time and possibly an even larger number of paraphrases it is likely that one could prove almost anything from a "Bible???"!

I personally prefer the KJV though I have access to a number of other translations. After the KJV I like the NKJV, the NASB [original] and the ESV. The ASV is a very literal translation but uses a different Greek NT than the KJV as do most other modern translations. That being said consider how a number of the better translations render a certain passage of Scripture:


John 5:28, 29; KJV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28, 29; NKJV
28. “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29. “and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:28, 29; NASB
28. “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29.and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28, 29; ESV
28. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29.and come out, those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28, 29; ASV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29. and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28, 29; GLT
28. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
29. And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28, 29; KJ21
28. Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice
29. and shall come forth--they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:28, 29; MKJV
28. Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29. and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:28, 29; NAS95
28. “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29. and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28, 29; NRSV
28. Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29. and will come out--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:28, 29; WEB
28. Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29. and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

John 5:28, 29; NIV
28. “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29. and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

John 5:28, 29; YLT
28. ‘Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29. and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

It is clear that whether the Greek word "hora" is translated "the hour" or "an hour" to "a time" Jesus Christ is teaching the resurrection of all the dead, both good and evil, within a specific period of time. There is no way this passage can be spun to allow a time period of 1007 years between the resurrection of the just and the unjust or as the preeminent dispensational doctrinaire Walvoord, former president of Dallas Theological Seminary, would say 1007 years and a little more!

Consider once again the following:

 

Painfully obvious?
Just this one verse alone:
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It alone proves a pre-mil, if not pre-trib rapture.

 

Pre-Mil, yes.
Pre-Trib, no.

And 1 verse rarely proves anything.

Couple it with the rest of the passage, and "bye-bye" pre-trib.

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrectionn such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

First Res. includes those who are martyred during the Trib.

God can count to 2 just fine.

2nd Res. takes place after the Mil.

So, let's recount:

1 before the Mil.
1 after.

No-brainer.

 

Consider:

Revelation 20:1-4
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What did John see? He saw souls not resurrected and glorified bodies! Verse 4 is simply apocalyptic language for all those who died in Jesus Christ and now reigning with HIM, even though some deny GOD REIGNS!

 

Those martyred during the Tribulation are not given glorified bodies until the end of the Millennium.
See how easy that was?

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I vote for more than 4 smilies. The above remark should get at least a dozen!

 

"The Rapture" of the Body of Christ takes place BEFORE the Tribulation.
This image of "souls" seen in heaven, by John, are Mid-Trib - before the Wrath. :wavey:

 

Neither you nor anyone else can produce one verse of Scripture that shows a pre-grin rapture because it does not exist. You hyper dispensationalists see Scripture through the fog of Bullingerism. Classic or revised dispensationalists see Scripture through the haze of Darbyism! That is the truth!

 

That is some methodology you have in the interpretation of scriptures. Choose which ones to interpret literally. Then those that don't fit with your particular paradigm just slough them off as allegorical. That is what you just did with verse four.
It doesn't fit. Therefore it is allegorical. Right?
Have you ever seen a "soul"? What about a "spirit"? John was still human, and did not have a glorified body. He saw what he said he saw. It was in the future, and it was promised by Jesus in Luke 22.

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

John saw what Jesus promised them. He saw the Kingdom that Jesus promised them. It will still come. John wrote Revelation ca.98 A.D. and died in the 2nd century, well after the destruction of Jerusalem. The thrones never came in his lifetime. They are yet future.

 

BUMP http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2144533&postcount=87

 

According to JW's it already took place about a hundred years ago.

 

I assume you are talking about the Russelites, the Watchtower Society? Perhaps preeminent dispensational scholar Walvoord was a little off mark and the grrreat seven year tribulation is "slightly more than a smidgen" longer than seven years!

 

The problem with us Brother is that we don't have on the correct "spectacles". You see that makes a world of difference:

The Apostle Peter writes about the resurrected Jesus Christ as GOD tells him: 1st Peter 3:22, Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.[/QUOTE]

But viewed through the misty lens of Darbyism Peter is just writing to comfort suffering Christians and Satan still reigns on earth!

Jesus Christ tells us:
Matthew 12:22-31
22. Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24. But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

But viewed through the misty lens of Darbyism Jesus Christ really did not bind Satan and the Kingdom of GOD, well maybe so, maybe, not and Satan reigns on earth!

 

[FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/FONT]

The truth is that concerning the actual "sound" of the trump, the voice, the shout, that occurs, we don't know for sure who hears and who doesn't. We can only make rational assumptions--which fits best.
There are two scenarios which I would deem acceptable.
The first is that they are heard in heaven, that is an announcement for all the heavenly beings.
The second is that they will be audible for believers on earth, much lke a sound was heard that only Saul could understand but others could not.

The trouble with that is that in 1Cor.15:52 it says this:
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[/FONT]
--This also describes the rapture, the same event as above.
The "twinkling of an eye" is a very fast moment of time like the fraction of a second. The rapture will be that quick; that sudden. That doesn't fit in with an announcement of his coming for his saints, at least not on earth. Paul doesn't say it is heard on earth.

The main problem here is getting posters like OR, Icon, and some of the others to first believe that there is a millennium and that there is a Great Tribulation. Otherwise the discussion about a pre-trib rapture is fruitless. The contribution of an amilleniallist or a Preterist doesn't contribute much to the placement of the rapture (pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib) or even pre-mil, when the poster denies the existence of a millennium completely.

 

OR, Icon, and many others prefer Scripture over Darby and Scofield. Icon, like many others on this Forum, is a recovered dispensationalist. By the grace and mercy of GOD OldRegular was not exposed to dispensationalism until I knew better!

 

Ruled and reigned with Him here on the earth, as did not jesus promise His apostles that theoy would sit on thrones ruling ver isreal with him?

 

Do you take the Mil referred to here as a physical, literal Kingdom Age here on the earth at His second coming, or an indefinite time, as a spiritual reigning from ascension unto second coming?

 

And you see Escathology through the views of Roman Catholic Church, as they see it same way you do, and that is the truth!