the shedding of blood

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Helen, Nov 24, 2002.

  1. Helen

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    While Barry and I were working on the Bible study in Leviticus this evening, something hit me about a couple of the quotes on blood that we used. Here:

    Romans 3:21-25But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

    Romans 5:9Since we now have been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

    How many times do we hear "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and the quote is just stopped there! It's sort of like what we do with "the truth shall make you free" -- it has more to the sentence in both cases. In the one quoted here, ALL have sinned....AND are justified freely...(NIV; the KJV leaves out the 'and' -- the Greek interlinear shows the 'and' is missing but the reading is: "for all sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by the of him grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus...")

    It's the same subject for both verbs: all.

    And this is what the Bible has said in so many other places as well -- ALL are justified; ALL are atoned for. God truly is NOT willing that any should perish and He made provision for ALL. There is simply no way to get around it, as it is stated over and over again!

    But look at the second quote again: Romans 5:9Since we now have been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!.

    The justification is one thing; the wrath of God is another. That one we can tie into Romans 1, where the wrath of God is being revealed against those who suppress the truth.

    It is true that God so loved the entire world that He gave His Son.

    It is just as true that not many in the world have ever wanted to love Him back.

    It seems to me that the deeper we go into Bible studies, the less Calvinism seems to have any biblical support...
     
  2. russell55

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    Helen,

    Justification (as Paul uses the word) means that we are counted or declared righteous--as in "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Abraham was justified by his faith.

    Right in the passage you quoted it tells us that a couple of times that justification is through faith:

    Verse 22: Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Christ Jesus, to all and on all who believe....

    When Paul uses the term "righteousness of God" he is speaking of justification, and it comes to us through faith, and is for all who believe.

    Verse 24: ...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by his blood through faith...

    The propitiation through which people are redeemed, through which people are justified, comes through faith. This justification is only for those who have faith.

    Verse 26: to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    It is those who have faith who are justified.

    Verse 28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Once again, Paul says it is justified through faith.

    IMHO, the punctuation in the NIV is probably a bit off. It's really one big sentence, and I believe the phrase "for there is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" is a parenthetical phrase. So I would punctuate it more like this:

    But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets; even the righteousness by faith in Christ Jesus for all those who believe--for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God--being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously commited; for the demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Whew! Now that's a long sentence!
     
  3. Helen

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    While I appreciate your desire to punctuate it according to your theology, that is not the way any of the translators I am aware of have punctuated it. That part of the passage has two verbs attached to one subject: "all". The clear implication is that as many as have sinned have also been justified by the shedding of Christ's blood, but that the righteousness, which is different, comes via faith (the same way it did for Abraham) in the Messiah. Thus, it appears justification and imputed righteousness are not only quite different but that while one might be considered universal, the second is only for believers.

    This would be in perfect accord with John 3:16-18 and the many, many references to 'believe and be saved'.

    In other words, Christ cleared the way for everyone. The question is, do you want to walk it? You can't walk it on your own, but if you want it, God will take you step by step.

    On the possible opposition is Romans 8:28-30 where the last part says "those he justified he also glorified." And we know not everyone is glorified!

    But if justification is freely accomplished or readied for everyone, then the implication may be that it can be refused, just a forgiveness can be refused.

    There is a definite sense of the universal where some of these verses are concerned and just as definite a sense of exclusiveness in other verses.

    I do consider both, or all, sides, folks, tracking words and phrases all through the Bible to see what else is said. I'm not simply trying to buttress my 'own' position, but trying to find out what God is saying on some of the issues we struggle with.

    I don't see Calvinism supported when verses are put in context. But then I don't see Arminianism supported either, when verses are put in context!

    What I do see is a universality of God's love and preparation for the salvation of every human being through Christ. What I also see is the command to choose this day -- now -- whom you will serve. This is also the plea in Hebrews as well: "do not harden your hearts", "while it is still called today...." I see Jesus saying "come" and "seek, knock, ask". I see God saying "Come, let us reason together..."

    So I know there is a choice involved, and not a meaningless choice (meaning only one choice is possible), but a choice with real and available alternatives to man.

    I see God interacting with man; never losing control and always knowing the end from the beginning, but also allowing man a great deal of latitude in choices he makes.

    And I also see that it is impossible for a man to help with his own salvation in the gaining or maintenance of it in any way -- that all is of Christ and for Christ. Therefore once we are His, that's it for good.

    The Bible seems to present something a little more complicated than either Calvinism or Arminianism from what I read and study.
     
  4. Scott_Bushey

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    Helen,
    Are you telling me that you believe that the death of Christ @ Calvary "justified" every single individual in the world?

    I must ask you, can you please explain to me your understanding of "justification".
     
  5. KenH

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    Interesting. Sounds like more support for GH's Christian Universalism view that she has been posting in this forum.

    Ken
     
  6. Helen

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    It doesn't matter what my opinion is. What is the Bible saying here?

    Can't we discuss what the Bible says instead of attacking or defending people???

    I ran across that last night and it brought me to the proverbial screeching halt. Barry looked it up in the LXX Alexandrian (the oldest LXX), and I checked the Greek interlinear, and four translations. The same thing is coming through everywhere.

    Now, are you guys capable of actually discussing something or only trying to defend your pov? Me? I'm interested to know what the Bible is actually saying, not what this person or that person has interpreted it to mean.
     
  7. KenH

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    Helen,

    So...what point are you making about the shedding of blood? You stated the subject goes deeper than Calvinism or Arminianism. I agree. [​IMG] So what's the bottom line we are garner from this?

    Ken
     
  8. Helen

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    What it looks like is that justification/atonement was accomplished for all men from all times and places in the history of the world.

    I had not thought about this in this way before. But the more I think about it, the more it makes sense with the rest of what I am reading in the Bible. I tried to explain what I was seeing above.

    I showed the verse in Romans 8 which makes it a little muddy, but not if justification/atonement can be refused. That would happen if the truth of Christ, as presented by the Holy Spirit, were rejected/denied. That, then, would be the sin against the Holy Spirit which removed one from the realm of this atonement instead of denying to the person in the first place...?

    don't you see? It all has to come together as one single message from the Lord; one single clear explanation. It's not a 'this verse' or 'that verse' thing. I know a woman who excused her adultery by saying "God is love", so it was OK... I was stunned, but it was a good lesson given me!

    But you can't just change punctuation to make something fit what you already believe, as was done above. That's exactly what the JW's do to Jesus' words on the cross to the thief, so they can get it to fit their theology. That's not right.

    I'm seeking, I'm knocking, I'm asking -- mostly of God, but I'll take input from other humans also... :D
     
  9. russell55

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    But did you look up the definition of "justified" in a lexicon?

    And how do you deal with the fact the the same passage three times says flat out (in verse 26 and 28 and 30) that it is those who believe that are justified?

    Or what about Romans 5:1? After proving the Abraham was "reckoned righteous by faith", Paul concludes, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God..."

    Or what about Galatians 2:16?

    Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in
    Christ jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ...


    Or Galatians 3:24 ?

    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

    Or Galatians 3:8?

    And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations whall be blessed in you."

    Over and over again Paul says we are justified through or by or out of faith. Only those who have faith are justified. How ever you want to interpret Romans 3:23 and 24, that interpretation must be in agreement with all these other verses, a list which includes at least three clear statements in the very same passage that say justification is through faith.

    BTW, I looked up this verse on blueletter this morning, and 2 versions at least (the NET bible and the NLT) punctuate "For there is no difference, for all have sinned" as a separate sentence, and Young's translation punctuates it exactly as I did--as a parenthetical phrase. Since there is no punctuation in the Greek, I think it is unwise to develop an atonement theory that relies on one verse only and then only one punctuation of that verse, especially when numerous other verses argue against your theory.

    IMO there's a lot more in scripture than Romans 8 that makes it a little muddy.... But first, please look up the definition of "justification" in a Greek lexicon.
     
  10. KenH

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    Helen,

    Then you must ultimately reach the conclusion that either the Christian Universalism that GH promotes in this forum is true, or, to back off a tad from that, the Biblical Universalism that Neal Punt advocates is true.

    If one is justified/atoned for, he cannot be lost, but must be saved.

    Ken
     
  11. Helen

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    Ken, you're the easy one to answer, so you're first. No, it doesn't mean that kind of universalism because men are saved by believing or not believing in Jesus Christ, not because He may have atoned for everyone. I can pay a large debt for you (nice thought!) but that doesn't mean you are going to accept that gift. You may insist on trying to work it off yourself and tell me, in effect, "Take your money back. I don't want it." Then there is nothing I can do -- I have tried to help you by erasing your entire debt, but your response is going to be the telling factor. There are tons of people who refuse earthly charity -- not to mention heavenly charity. So from where I stand there is quite a difference between univeralism as you are attributing it to this thought and what I am thinking about.

    Russell -- thank you for those reminders. The response to you is much shorter here because I want to get my teeth into this thing now. As far as looking up justification, no, I have not done it yet simply because that is the word the Bible was using. Thank you also for pointing me to the other ways the verse is phrased. I thought you were making up something on your own.

    I've got some reading and studying to do now... [​IMG]

    Back later.
     
  12. Me2

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    Thats "Universal reconciliation". and it centers around the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. all mankind receives the imputed righteousness of God.

    While, within our life in this world, we unfortunately see from our finite viewpoint, God The Father drawing some to Christ..Think about it..the some are the Elect.

    Christ example to the world is one of the ultimate servant. like it or not..thats is to be our eternal nature (Christs BODY)...While in Heaven...Who will we be serving?

    Gods fallen creation...

    while I get a chuckle at you guys who are calvinists..you got God choosing his predestined elect...while the armineans has mankind choosing freewill within Gods invitation to all (his elect). both DENY GOD CHOOSING who will ultimately be citizens of Heaven.

    Who will these elect be serving..themselves..thats not agape love? ..think about it..
    The Elect will be serving someone....

    There is a rhyme and reason for pre-choosing the character of the Elect.

    ONLY by faith will God allow one to see His Nature...Infinite Love.
    He Loves Everybody..and will show that love to all..... eventually...
    THROUGH his elect
     
  13. KenH

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    Oh? Now it sounds like you are saying man saves himself. I thought you believed that man is saved by what Jesus did for him as his Substitute. Don't you believe that Christ's redemption is sufficient for salvation? :confused:

    Ken

    [ November 24, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  14. Helen

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    oh come on, Ken! You already know what I have said innumerable times here. Christ saved us, but salvation is for those who believe. Is that better?

    You know John 3:16-18 and so many other verses. Please don't pick an argument because you don't like the way I said it!
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    V. 22 gives the context as the righteousness which is for "those who believe." V. 23 is a parenthesis of sorts arguing that there is no one at all that does not need the righteousness of Christ that comes by faith. So the context explains itself and does not argue that the righteous is for the same all that sinned (regardless of your position on LA). In other words, I think it would be a misuse of this passage to argue either way about the limitedness or unlimitedness of the atonement. It simply is not addressing it.

    BTW, I am curious as to what caused you to think that someone was attacking you. So far as I see, there was only a question about what your definition of justification was. I think that is a vital point and would be worthy of exploration in your understanding of this passage.
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    You may insist on trying to work it off yourself and tell me, in effect, "Take your money back. I don't want it." Then there is nothing I can do -- I have tried to help you by erasing your entire debt, but your response is going to be the telling factor.

    But if the debt is paid, it is paid no matter what your response.

    If you go to the store and pay off my debt, and them come to me and tell me what you have done, the store doesn't care if I pay you back or not. The debt is paid to whom it was owed.

    You must believe that the sins of lost people will be paid for twice. Once by Christ and again by the sinner.
    What would the storekeeper say to you if you tried to pay your debt off? He would look at the books and say Paid in Full.
     
  17. KenH

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    Excellent point, Grasshopper.

    Also, if a person is told his debt is paid off, and the store owner comes to that person and tells him to pay the debt again, he will look at him like he is crazy. [​IMG]

    Wouldn't God be unjust and unfair to demand payment for the same sins twice - once at the cost of Jesus' suffering and then a second time at the cost of the person's soul for whose sins Jesus had already borne the punishment. The obvious answer is...yes.

    Ken
     
  18. BobRyan

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    It is not surprising that the Arminains posting here already found that to be true.

    But when the Calvinists discover it - they become 3-point calvinist. Once you discover that God so loved the World - then it is just a matter of time before you accept 1John 4 - that Christ is the Savior of the World and 1John 2 that He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for those of the Whole World.

    And then you are left with the "response" text in direct opposition to Calvinism. CAlvinism states
    that scripture SHOULD only be in the form

    "IF God selects you then He is faithful and just to cause you to accept the Gospel, cause you to be born again, cause you to endure until the end".

    "ALL have sinned - ALL have fallen - but God selects a FEW to be justified".

    "God so loved the FEW that He ... for them alone"

    "I will draw a FEW from within Mankind unto Me"

    -----------------------------

    And YET we find it in the form...

    "To as many as .... HE gave the rigth to...."

    "Come to ME... ALL who are .... AND I WILL..."

    And it is in the form "IF WE .... Then HE is faithful and just to ...."

    OR in is in the invitation form "I STAND outside the door and knock - IF any man.... THEN I will..."

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     

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