The smoking gun, of the Earth’s age

I think StillLearning perhaps should have said: "The Hebrew word 'yom' (translated 'day' in English), when used with a numeral (first day, second day, etc.) always a twenty-four hour day".

 

David, it seems that the word 'yom' does not always mean 24 hours.

 

But which definition of day. Taken in context it is possible for the word 'day' 'yom' to be a number of lengths of time.

 

Sorry, Crabtownboy, but I never said it did. I said that when used with a numeral (first day, second day, etc.) always a twenty-four hour day".

 

I do not see that as proof of a 24 hour day. In fact, I do not see it as defining any particular period of time. The first day could well be the first era. I am not sure, can 'yom' be translated as era? Meaning is lost in any translation and I fear this is true in Genesis.

 

What is lost is your faith. Have faith that God did things the way the Bible said. It is much easier than walking around your entire life in doubt and confusion. You attempt to make Genesis conform to your world view. You are afraid that you will be mocked and scorned as a "fundamentalist" or one of those "religious wackos". Stop being afraid and just have faith.

 

First of all you're misapplying scripture. Paul says "all scripture is God breathed." I haven't said anything different. Paul didn't say God gave us his word directly from heaven on Golden tablets. Next, Just because scripture is inspired of God doesn't mean its the same thing. You seem to think the bible is a homogenous work. It isn't. It was written over a priod of 1300 years by 30 different authors. The bible is a library of works. It isn't one thing. It is many books of differing stylistic, artistic, methodogical works. Thus we have books that are poetry, history, prophesy, etc... Each work can be studied from stylistic point of view and you will see the fingerprint of the authors style. which is why we know certain books had more than one author. What holds this Library of books together, is that God inspired and orchestrated man to write these text to 1) progressively reveal himself to us and 2) tell the story of Salvation. And God breathes life into these words. Thus we can say the bible is a library of living documents. GOD DID NOT DICTATE THE ENTIRE BIBLE. I can't emphasise this enough.

You've actually proved my point by using Peter. They didn't understand. They wrote within their ability. They didn't understand what God was doing but God orchestrated their lives in such a way that using their (men's ) tallents, intuition, etc.. God was able to reveal (special revelation) things beyond what they knew such as my example of King David. David had no idea when he wrote Psalm 22 he was speaking of Jesus. He was poetically complaining to God about his experiences. God orchestrated this and David to write this that God foretold the crucifixion of Jesus. Yet it was David in his limited capacity writing about what he felt and experienced that wrote the words. God orchestrated the lives of men like a conductor so that his musical master piece (bible) could be heard. Yet each man in the orchestra plays their part and adds their tallent with what they know. Each musician plays their part in the limit of their skill yet we don't just hear violins. We Hear winds, percussion, etc... So a violinist at a specific point in the piece plays their part and makes it all fit together. The bible was writen and inspired like this. Save that God orchestrated entire lives of people.

I don't know how Daniel fits your view. But he was a prophet and thus falls into one of my areas where God did show him specifically special revelation. Yet as you admit he had no idea just revealed within his understanding what it was he saw. God had to fill him in. As far as Job he was expressing himself and God orchestrated his life so that he would express himself in his limitation to express something greather than he knew. But It was still Job who said it and God used him. Cooperation. Doesn't change that fact.

They were but God used their tallents and expressions to reveal more. Only you want to believe God is a celestial loud speaker and man is no more than a dictaphone. God's power is more greately evident in his orchestration rather than dictation.

Paul was a trained Pharisee. He was from southern Turkey and was trained in both Judaic principles and law and Trained in classical Greek. Paul used his education and ability to connect the dots of scripture, and other things to write his letters. Yet this doesn't take away from God's inspiration. Tell me this when Paul argued with Barnabas about John Mark was this inspired by God? Do you really think Paul at this time had a direct line to God during this episode? Note God orchestrated this event to spread the Gospel further than Paul would have on his own. Did God tell Paul to argue with them? No. Paul as we know later made up with John Mark and Barnabas.

 

Not really Matt. I am absolutely convinced and believe that God created the heavens and earth. I believe Genesis can honestly be interpreted in several ways. I don't doubt God did it. But I doubt it was in 24 hour days as that makes no sense with what we see in our world. So I do have great faith in God ... but not necessarily in others interpretations.

It is possible to count the age of ice in the polar caps. Like tree rings a new layer is developed each year. These, with core samples, can be counted, but this is very time consuming. However we know that there is ice that is 12 thousand years old. In fact this is a very conservative estimate and counting. That predates the age of earth held by many Christians.

The important thing is that God did it ... not how he did it or how long it took. Days, years or millions of years to me it makes no difference. That God did it is important.

 

It's very important, whether you believe it or not.

Do you not believe that God is able to create things with age?

From your arguments above, I have a feeling that you don't believe that God instantly created Adam and Eve as fully developed humans. Do you? Or do you follow the worldly view of evolution?

 

The thing is many fear to go against the thoughts of today. If there was no such thing as Darwinism, dating, billions of years theories &c we would have very little of this attempt to reconcile creation with popular scientific thought.

Somehow people fearfully think they must reconcile Gods account of creation and defend Him (really, themselves from embarrassment) in order to sound and come across as critical and intellectual.

It is true that biblically speaking a day wasn't always 24 hours. It was less than that many times. So maybe God "worked" a certain many hours per day. I certainly don't think it took a literal and entire 24 hours for Him to speak the worlds into being.

The thought from Scripture that to God "a day is as a 1000 years, and a 1000 years as a day" doesn't support that "voila! it must have taken God eons of time to do this!" This is exactly what people do. This Scripture is taken completely out of context.

I believe He did it in a week. Just plain faith in Scripture.

If we begin to doubt the time frame, then let's also doubt whether He really did it. Maybe that part is allegorical too.

 

I believe that God is completely unlimited in how he could and does create. What is important is that God did it and not try to limit God to my understanding.

I am not sure what you mean by the worldly view of evolution. There are a number of views on evolution including theistic evolution. To me how God did it and how long it took is of academic interest and that he did it is of primary importance.

 

Do you believe that God created Adam and Eve instantly as fully formed humans beings?

 

I do not know what you mean by fully formed humans. This is most perplexing. Do you mean Caucasian, Negroid or Oriental in looks? Do you mean black hair, blond hair, straight or curly hair? What do you mean by fully formed human?

I know that people have changed over the centuries. I first noted this when I was in the army, stationed in Germany, and noticed that the guard stations at the Heidelberg castle were very small. Most 20th century fellows would have had a hard time getting into one and it would have been impossible for most fellows to stand in one out of the rain. Better nutrition accounts for most of this change in physical size, but it is change.

Frankly again, how God created is not of primary importance. That he created is of primary importance.

Would it really shake you faith if it was absolutely proven that earth was not created in 7 literal days?

My faith is not tied to how God did something, but that he did do it. I would never presume to try to limit God to my understanding.

 

You know full well what my question means and you are avoiding answering it. That is very telling.

If you can't believe that God created Adam and Eve as fully formed human beings, then of course you don't believe he created the world as the Bible says either.

You can refer back to post #49 of this thread.

 

Stilllearning, when God "filled in" Daniel, he still didn't get it.

Daniel 12:8 - And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

He didn't get it. Here's what Peter said:

1 Peter 1:10-12 - Of which salvation teh prophets have enquired and searched dilligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Notice that not only did they not understand the things they wrote, but it was not formed in their minds according to their understanding. Rather, it came from the Spirit of Christ which was in them. It was signified by the Spirit, which testified beforehand the suffering sof Christ and the glory that should follow. When these men wrote, it wasn't something they had derived. They were moved by the Holy Ghost to write exactly what they wrote and even they didn't understand what they wrote. Your whole idea falls apart under the scrutiny of scripture.

 

What do you mean by fully formed humans?

Were they human? Of course. Who said I do not believe that God created Adam and Eve? You brought up "fully formed". What is fully formed? ?What is a fully formed human today? Is a mentally retarded person a "fully formed human?" Is a person with a genetic defect a "fully formed human". By "fully formed" are you speaking of physical characteristics only or does fully formed involved more than physical characteristics?

If you throw out a term you should be able to define it so we can have a rational discussion. Please do not accuse me of not answering a question in another thread, when I have with article links, and then refuse to answer my question here. Thanks for your definition of "fully formed human" in advance. I am waiting for the definition.

 

Really? What is a morning? An evening? Please tell me. Is not the morning and evening dictated by the sun? Yet, as you pointed out, there was not sun until the 4th day. How then could the bible say there was a morning and evening prior to the creation of the sun?

Man tries to limit God to his own finite understanding.

The same man who by the Spirit wrote that first chapter of Genesis also wrote this in Exodus 20: 8-11: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all they work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor they son, nor they daughter, they manservant, nor they maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Oh, but we are supposed to believe that the days in Genesis 1 weren't 24 hour days. What, then, are the days in Exodus 20?

 

I took Matt to mean either "adult" or perhaps "actually human when first created, rather than gradually developing from inferior beings over long periods of time."

But there are huge implications if God really "created through evolution". For instance, if that were the case, there would have been much death before sin. And if the "First Adam" was the result, or rather, one of the many results, of aeons of evolution, where does that leave the "Second Adam", the Lord Jesus Christ?

I think it is important to bear in mind that most of us (I imagine) have been brought up in a world that assumes the theory of evolution to be true. The media make statements such as, "This fossil was formed x million years ago," with not the slightest suggestion that there could be any doubt on the matter. Our state schools teach evolution as the explanation of origins. So it is small wonder that we find it so difficult to believe that God created immediately, out of nothing.