The Substitutionary Atonement of Christ

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Pioneer, Nov 26, 2001.

  1. Pioneer

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    Christ died for the sins of the whole world. If you don't believe that then you are a heretic in the first degree.

    1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    1 John 4:10, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

    Hebrews 10:12, "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
     
  2. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:
    Christ died for the sins of the whole world. If you don't believe that then you are a heretic in the first degree.

    1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    1 John 4:10, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

    Hebrews 10:12, "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Are you calling Christ and Paul heretics?? ALL does not always mean ALL.

    John 10:1-18 (ESV)
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. [2] But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [3] To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [4] When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. [5] A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." [6] This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
    [7] So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [8] All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. [9] I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. [10] The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. [11] I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. [12] He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. [13] He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. [14] I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, [15] just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. [17] For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. [18] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."


    John 10:25-30 (ESV)
    Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, [26] but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. [28] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. [30] I and the Father are one."


    Ephes. 5:25 (ESV)
    Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

    If Christ's sacrifice is substitutionary for every man and woman who ever lived or ever will live, why will people who have had their sins washed away go to hell? Your position demands universal salvation.
     
  3. ddavis

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    Chris:If Christ's sacrifice is substitutionary for every man and woman who ever lived or ever will live, why will people who have had their sins washed away go to hell? Your position demands universal salvation.

    Chris wouldn't their sins only be washed away if they accept the free gift of salvation that's offered to all?
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    The decision to "wash away" sin and the ability to do so is 100% of God . . or else salvation would be of works.

    IF God covered your sins with the blood of Christ, THEN they are covered. Period. End of discussion. Fine. It's a done deal. We go to heaven!!

    Then we can extrapolate IF God covered the sins of the whole world, every person without exception or exemption, THEN they are covered. Period. End of discussion. EVERYBODY goes to heaven!

    Of course, I believe the premise to be in error, that Christ's blood does NOT cover the sins of the whole world (as in everybody). Most will die in their sins.

    BTW, "who cares" if we believe this or not? Does man "believing" cover his sins, or did Christ do that on the cross? My salvation was secured by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world . . .
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Homey illustration. I am arrested for street preaching in Casper. $50 fine. I don't have $50 so I stay in jail.

    Along comes a godly deacon and pays the $50. The judge says the fine is paid, I am free to go.

    I don't want to. I don't accept the payment. I like the food in jail better than the healthy stuff my wife feeds me.

    Tough.

    Fine is paid. I am free. MY role in the matter was "0" - whether I agree or accepted or didn't was not at issue.

    And so with salvation . . . except, get this, the best part is that God's Holy Spirit worked in my heart so that guilty Bob would actually WANT to accept and believe! What an amazing part of grace - to regenerate this willful sinner and change my heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

    He did not compel me to go 'gainst my will ~~
    He just made me willing to go!
     
  6. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
    Chris wouldn't their sins only be washed away if they accept the free gift of salvation that's offered to all?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No. God did not do all he could do and now waits for what we will do. He did not make salvation possible at Calvary, he saved the church at Calvary.

    We are mot saved by faith; we are saved by grace, throughfaith, and even this is not of ourselves; it is the gift of God. The very justifying faith we have has been given to us by God (Romans 12:3).

    If we had to exercise faith of our own to acquire salvation, then faith would be a work of our own of which we could boast. But we cannot boast for salvation and faith are of the Lord (Eph 2:8-9).
     
  7. Brian

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    Dr.Bob for your illistration to apply you would have to be on death row and that Godly deacon would need to go the the 'lectric chair for you.
     
  8. Brian

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    BTW Chris in simple context in the KJV according to Strongs Exhuastive Concordance All does mean All. After your post in another thread I checked it out. The word all occurs 4664 times in the KJV. You tell me that it occurs 4537 times in yours so I don't know if it always means All in your bible. So it would appear that my as you say hypothisis still holds up.

    Why didn't you answer directly to the concept of gift? I noticed that you wanted to nit pick over all but never addressed the concept of gift. it is important that you do so since it occurs in the scripture that you quoted as supporting your position. Anway that was on another thread about this same topic that seemed to be winding down and I just wanted to know thats all.
     
  9. ddavis

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    But if a person doesn't ask to be saved then he goes to hell, don't pass go and don't collect $200.00. A person still has to make the choice to accept or reject the Grace (Christ) that we put our faith into that saves us to become part of the church. [​IMG]
     
  10. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian:
    [QB]BTW Chris in simple context in the KJV according to Strongs Exhuastive Concordance All does mean All. After your post in another thread I checked it out. The word all occurs 4664 times in the KJV. You tell me that it occurs 4537 times in yours so I don't know if it always means All in your bible. So it would appear that my as you say hypothisis still holds up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, it does not. of course all means "all", that is the word. Just like bird means "bird". But a word used in context defines the meaning of the word. This is something you seem unable to grasp. All does not always mean all without exception. A simple reading of Scripture will show that. And you still refuse to deal with Romans 5.15-21. Why is that?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why didn't you answer directly to the concept of gift? I noticed that you wanted to nit pick over all but never addressed the concept of gift. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    A gift is undeserved and unearned. Christ gives us the gift of salvation because of nothing we have done or nothing we have earned. It is given to the elect he has chosen to give it to.

    Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

    The gift is not like the offense. The offense earned condemnation for all; the free gift abounded to many, the elect, out of God's good pleasure to do so. The elect are justified, although ALL are not.

    Rom 6:23 For the wages (earned) of sin is death, but the gift of God (received) is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  11. paul hadik

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    ddavis:

    your comment on those who reject God's grace therefore go to hell was once the way I thought. I believed we all had this crisis moment in life where we made a decision for or against Christ, a sort of expanded Coke or Pepsi thing. In making the right decision, to accept his gift of salvation we went to heaven, in rejecting it we went to hell. Since studying the Bible chronologically however I have seen the fallacy behind this. We are damned not due to a decision we do or do not make but because of our sin which a holy God cannot abide. No decision can save us. We are indeed hopeless. God is truly the author and finisher of our faith. any hope I have at all is totally resting in the grace of God and not on any decision I have made.
     
  12. S. Baptist

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
    But if a person doesn't ask to be saved then he goes to hell, don't pass go and don't collect $200.00. A person still has to make the choice to accept or reject the Grace (Christ) that we put our faith into that saves us to become part of the church. [​IMG]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree with you.


    Sheeee, how hard is it to understand that Jesus's blood "COULD SAVE" the "Whole Worlds", "IF", "IF", they would believe.

    "Unbelief" is what keeps a person from being saved, not that Jesus's blood wasn't sufficient to cover "ALL SIN".
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
    "Unbelief" is what keeps a person from being saved, not that Jesus's blood wasn't sufficient to cover "ALL SIN".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In the last part of this statement you have hit the crux of the matter. Jesus' blood was sufficient to atone for every single sin that has ever been committed. Had God decreed to save the whole world, no more would have been required. By the same token, had he decreed to save only one, no less would have been required. However, it was efficient only for those who believe.

    Who believes? Those who have been appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

    The question is simply this: Did the atonement accomplish anything or did it simply make it possible?
     
  14. S. Baptist

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  15. S. Baptist

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


    In the last part of this statement you have hit the crux of the matter. Jesus' blood was sufficient to atone for every single sin that has ever been committed. Had God decreed to save the whole world, no more would have been required. By the same token, had he decreed to save only one, no less would have been required. However, it was efficient only for those who believe.

    Who believes? Those who have been appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

    The question is simply this: Did the atonement accomplish anything or did it simply make it possible?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Jesus's sacrifice made it "possible" for "every sin, ever committed", to be "forgiven", HOWEVER, there is a "condition attached".

    And that condition is that a person "believe", or "have Faith" in God.

    Let me point out something that "very clear" in the Bible, God gives everyone their "Heart's desire".

    If you chose Hell, you get Hell, If you chose Heaven, (Faith), you get Heaven.

    Jesus's salvation is offer to "everyone", that's why it is to be preached to "all creatures".
     
  16. ddavis

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    I guess my point is whither you are the elect or not you have to ask for the forgiveness of the sinful nature that is within from the Lord Jesus Christ to save you from eternal hell. And I believe in eternal security.
    No, I don't believe there is nothing I can do to abtain my salvation because I don't believe you can get it by works, Eph 2 8-9 it's already been done by what Christ has done for me through the shedding of His blood according to Hebrews.
    But you still have to ask, Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" Romans 10:10 "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation".
    Then once he saves you, then you know you are the elect. John 5:13. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Pasto Larry:
    The question is simply this: Did the atonement accomplish anything or did it simply make it possible?

    I agree with what you said and believe on this it did both.

    Paul:
    We are damned not due to a decision we do or do not make but because of our sin which a holy God cannot abide. No decision can save us.

    I follow what you are saying about the sin, I really do.
    But,I believe that not making a decision is making a decision against Christ, because you have to ask for that forgiveness. Did you make a decision to follow Christ?
     
  17. JAMES2

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    The Substitutionary Atonement of Christ:

    Christ was either a substitute for all mankind or He was not. If the sins of those who die in unbelief were imputed to Christ as their substitute, why is their destiny eternal punishment? Are not a great multitude of sinners already in hell because of their sins?

    If Christ died substitutionally for all mankind, bearing the divine penalty and guilt for the sins of ALL men without exception, there would be no one to appear before the great White Throne to be punished, therefore all men would be saved. But, we know that all men are not saved.

    A substitution which does not substitute is not a substitution, but a self-contradiction.

    I actually believe in a Redemption that redeems, an atonement that atones, a salvation that saves. Not one that offers the choice to fallen, unregenerated, sinful, depraved sinners to "accept" or "reject" based on their status before God, which is dead in their trespasses and sin. How on earth can a person in the flesh, (unregenerated) please God and "decide" to do ANYTHING TOWARD God, without God regenerating that person and giving him the free gift of faith? For man it is IMPOSSIBLE!!!! With God, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. Thank God for that!!

    Thank you Jesus that when you died a substitutionary death that your death actually acomplished what it intended to -- salvation for EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITHOUT EXCEPTION THE it was meant for. Thank you SOVEREIGN GOD, that YOUR ETERNAL plan does not depend on what depraved, unregenerated man does, thinks, cares about, decides, chooses, wants, desires, accepts or rejects. You are God and NO ONE can have any effect whatsoever on what YOU do. I thank you for that every day. As Bob so congently says: God 100%. James2 0%.

    [ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     

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