The temple and the end of the world

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Phillip, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Phillip

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    I have heard pastors that preached that the temple had to be built before Jesus could return. I do not see any evidence of this. I do see it being rebuilt, possibly during the reign of the anti-Christ.

    Is there any prophecy remaining before Jesus can return?

    Please provide scripture. THX
     
  2. James_Newman

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    You have just stated it yourself. The temple must be their for antichrist to sit in it and show himself to be god. Antichrist must come before Jesus comes. Therefore, temple must be rebuilt before Jesus comes. That is not to say that the rapture can not happen at any moment, but the temple will be rebuilt before the final return of Christ to set up His kingdom on this earth.

    2Th 2:1-4
    (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
     
  3. trailblazer

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    Christ taught us what doctrine to hold concering his return AND HIS TEMPLE.

    The Antichrist doesn't need a physical temple.
    Christ's "TEMPLE" is a LIVING TEMPLE - his CHURCH!
    Now, why won't Christ need that destroyed temple building in Jerusalem that was a sign of "judgment?" Because, he's going to take care of everything - all at the same time!

     
  4. rjprince

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    Wow. Here too.

    Trailblazer,

    Re Luke 17, interesting how you put the “s” in verse 26 in parenthesis. Did you think we would not notice that it was plural not singular - en tais hmerais (h=eta). Days (plural) also appears in verse 22.

    In any case, let’s look at the passage starting with v. 24

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    The second coming will be a “global event” from one part under heaven to the other part under heaven.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    Jesus must die first.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    Life was going on as usual when the flood came. It will be going on as usual when Christ returns in judgement upon unbelievers.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Same idea as with Noah, life as normal, then comes judgement.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Jesus will come on a set day. His coming will be in one day.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Lots wive looked back to the city with longing and was judged. If they are to escape judgment on that day, they must not turn back to the city.

    32 Remember Lot’s wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Covered this on another thread, but when judgement comes, you do not want to be taken. You want to be left. After the flood, everyone else was dead. Noah and his family was left. After the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his daughters were left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    After the judgement that accompanies His second coming, the vultures will eat the flesh of those judged.

    NONE OF THIS IN ANY WAY DISCOUNTS OR DISCREDITS PREMILLENNIALISM!!!

    I ask, does 3 singular uses of “day”, minus 2 plural uses of “days”, leaving us with only 1 net use of day still have the same impact? Pardon my silliness for a moment. I have lowered my hermeneutical practices to a substandard level for a moment to make a point.

    The fact that Jesus will return on one set day, to which I readily assent, in no way indicates that all the events of the “day of the Lord” will occur on one day! Just check out every instance of “day of the Lord” to realize the folly of your contention from Luke 17. Here are the 27 occurrences of the phrase in the AV – Isa 2:12; 13:6, 9; Jer 46:10; Ezek 13:5; 30:3; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad 1:15; Zeph 1:7, 8, 14, 18; 2:2, 3; Zech 14:1; Mal 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1Cor 5:5; 2Cor 1:14; 1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10.

    Some of the events occurred at Pentecost. Some of the events of the Day of the Lord have yet to occur.

    DID WANT TO POINT OUT A SERIOUS ERROR IN YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE PASSAGE.

    Here is the fundamental flaw, THERE IS NO MENTION OF RESURRECTION HERE!!! IN FACT, THEIR ACTIVITY PRECLUDES SUCH A READING INTO THE TEXT – “grinding together” and “in the field”. How do you get resurrection out of this?

    If this is resurrection, what is meant by not going back into the house to get his stuff?

    Your ludicrous interpretation of this passage is totally without foundation.
     
  5. trailblazer

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    Luke 17:26 (RSV)

    "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of man."

    apology please!
     
  6. trailblazer

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    Shall I do the round-robin on that one too, RJ?
     
  7. trailblazer

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    I do hope to see an apology on all those posts that accused me of altering scripture by adding an "s" that I didn't add.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    No, not when Jesus returns for the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection.
    The whole of the tribulation must take
    place before the return of Jesus in
    power in glory.

    -----------------------
    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
    -----------------------
     
  9. trailblazer

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    I checked out 9, yes, 9 commentaries today and ALL nine verified that the Second Coming in Luke 17 would be to separate the just from the unjust and that Jesus reason for using Lot and Noah was because it shows two events of salvation and punishment taking place ON THE SAME DAY!!
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    James_Newman: "That is not to say that the rapture can
    not happen at any moment, but the temple will be rebuilt
    before the final return of Christ to set up His kingdom on this earth."

    Amen, Brothre James_Newman -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  11. trailblazer

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    James,

    There isn't going to be any temple.

     
  12. trailblazer

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    Coffman's Commentary of the NT;

     
  13. mountainrun

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    If the topic is still whether or not there is a temple in the end times, yes there is.
    While Christians certainly don't need a temple, the Jews feel that they do and will rebuild it.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Daniel 9:27. He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven and in the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that cause desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    MR
     
  14. trailblazer

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    Newman,

    You're in the Old Testament. We're in the New Testament now.

    The HOLY CITY was destined to be destroyed. Even using human logic, why on earth would Christ return to a temple he would not even sleep in? Read a little more carefully.
    There isn't going to be any temple.

    Christ's "TEMPLE" is a LIVING TEMPLE - his CHURCH!
    Now, why won't Christ need that destroyed temple building in Jerusalem that was a sign of "judgment?" Because, he's going to take care of everything - all at the same time!</font>[/QUOTE]
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Rjprince: //Re Luke 17, interesting how you put
    the “s” in verse 26 in parenthesis.//

    Trailblazer: "I do hope to see an apology on all those
    posts that accused me of altering scripture by adding
    an "s" that I didn't add."

    All i see is that you were identified as putting
    parens around an "s". This is different from
    //altering scripture by adding an "s"//.

    No apology is due you.
     
  16. trailblazer

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    I didn't ask you for one! RJ was attacking unnecessarily!
     
  17. rjprince

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    Blazer,

    Why was the "s" in parenthesis? It is present in all the versions I checked but BBE. It was present in the version you cited in asking for my apology please. It is present in the Greek. You were arguing for "day" singular. It seemed like you were suggesting that it should have been singular in the quote, hence the Greek, "tais hmerais".

    If I misunderstood, and falsely accused you, I most humbly apologize.

    Let me also add this. At times of intense discussion I may state my case in an intense manner. I try to never call anyone an heretic, but I do sometimes use strong words. I do not mean to offend. If I do, and I probably will, again, please accept my advance apology! In fact let me just give you a couple advances and you can use them whenever you feel the need! I trust you will let me know if I use them all up and need to send more.

    Not trying to be "flip" or disrespectful there, just looking for a smile.
     
  18. trailblazer

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    RJ,

    I checked my RSV again. Here is why perhaps. I some time ago did a comparative study of where Christ is referring us back to Noah and Lot because he uses them as examples of what the future end times will be like.

    That is when I noticed again, the extreme emphasis of "ON THE SAME DAY" being repeated also.

    I must have put the parenthesis, in black ink in Luke because of the very interesting parrells. When I see the parenthesis, it reminds me to go back and look at the examples of Noah and Lot.

    It still does not change the meaning as both the flood and the destruction DID happen on the same day. The "s" was there.
     
  19. James_Newman

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    Christ's "TEMPLE" is a LIVING TEMPLE - his CHURCH!
    Now, why won't Christ need that destroyed temple building in Jerusalem that was a sign of "judgment?" Because, he's going to take care of everything - all at the same time!</font>[/QUOTE]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Just because temple may sometimes be a figurative reference to something else does not mean that it is always the case. Notice that the book explicitly tells you here that Jesus used the temple to refer to His body. So does that mean this temple is Jesus' body too?
    Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
    And this one?
    Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
    And this one?
    Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

    You have no reason to spiritualize that verse, other than you would like it to be spiritual. There will be a temple.

    Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
     
  20. mountainrun

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    trailblazer, read a little more carefully.
    Newman didn't post the prophecy from Daniel.
    I did. It concerns the time of the end, to quote Gabriel. Unfulfilled OT prophecies remain valid.

    However, since you insist on NT scriptures.
    2Thess. 2:3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day {the Day of the Lord} will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
    4. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    MR
     

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