The Thief on the Cross

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JSM17, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. JSM17

    JSM17
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    The Thief that knew Jesus
    Matthew 27:38-44; Mark 15:27-32; Luke 23:39-43; John 19:18

    Jesus was crucified between two robbers (Matt.27:38) and they both insulted Him (Matt. 27:44; Mk.15:32) just as the crowd did (v.44). When Jesus was crucified between two thieves scripture was being fulfilled which said “He was numbered with transgressors” (Mk. 15:28; Isa. 53:12). However in Luke’s account of the Gospel he states that as one thief insults Jesus the other defend the Lord (Luke 23:39). The one thief seems to have a change of heart (v.40), Why?

    It is clear that this thief came to faith or had a belief in Christ, either way he repented and confessed, which is not salvation by faith alone. You see that even the thief's faith was being perfected by works: Repentance and confession.
     
  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    What do you do with Ephesians 2:8-9?

    "For by grace are ye saved, through fath; and that, not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast."

    One may argue that it is grace, not faith, which is the gift of God. But the passage is specific. Salvation is not of works.

    I can't see how faith and repentance for salvation can be works, in light of this scripture.
     
  3. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele
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    You did not get the memo?

    The term "works" in Ephesians 2:8-10 has some qualifying words that are unstated.

    Some I have seen are `of the Judaic Law' or `of merit' or even `of man.'

    S/he may do something different, but those are what I have seen.
     
  4. steaver

    steaver
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    The theif's faith was indeed being perfected by repentance and confession even in his short time as a believer, just as our faith is being perfected by repentance and confession. However, repentance and confession are attributes of true faith. Not works one must do to be saved, but attributes one will have because they are saved. Faith still stands alone for one's imputed righteousness of Christ. James does a wonderful job of explaining how works proves faith.

    As you said, "faith is being perfected". It begins with faith/regeneration and then the faith alone that saved is brought to maturity by the working of the Holy Spirit indwellement. Repentance and confession is a daily part of growing in the faith of Christ alone that saved (regenerated) thee.

    See, saved just means regenerated/born-again. It is a one time act of God. We can rightly and with confidence say that we have been saved, are being saved and will be saved. All because of the moment we were born of God, having been sealed by the Holy Spirit and we have His promisses to keep us unto the day of fully realized redemption.

    Some well meaning Christians get this confused. They will say that without "works" of repentance, obedience and confession one cannot or will not be saved. Whilst this is true, it is not because our efforts of these things have power to save, but rather because these things confirm in us the work of the Holy Spirit within.

    I know I am saved because of the Spirit God gave me (Ro 8). This Spirit prompts me to repent, confess and obey towards God. These things did not save me nor are they saving me. Faith alone in Christ has saved me. These things are simply part of being a child of God.

    :jesus:
     
  5. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    Yep, missed it. Maybe because the "qualifying words" were unstated.
     
  6. bound

    bound
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    I'm not sure of your point?
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Well first of all "by faith alone" is only found in James 2 and is preceded by "not".

    Secondly the theif went through the same steps identified in Romans 10 "believe with your heart" and "confess" and the result Paul says in Romans 10 is "salvation".

    However those works do not "Earn" the thief salvation as if the "payment in full" for all of his life of sin was "confess and believe". That "pays" nothing. (I am sure we already agree on that point - but it helps to keep the Calvinist issue in perspective).

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. JSM17

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    So the Holy Spirit works in the unrepentant unconfessing sinner in order for him to repent and confess?
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Indeed. It is the supernatural work of God "convicting the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 --- and "drawing all" unto Him John 12:32.

    He is supernaturally enabling the choice that depravity disabled.

    It is just up to drawn and convicted mankind to then choose as the "whosoever will" group.

    He is the "light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1. But then men still choose darkness in many cases -- although they are enlightened enough to choose light and ENABLED to choose it if they "will".



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. DHK

    DHK
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    The thief said:
    "Lord remember me when you enter into your kingdom."

    Jesus said:
    "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."

    There is no mention of "repenting of sins." Where do you get that from? Such a concept is unbiblical.
     
  11. Darrenss1

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    Which comes first? Believe, repent or confess? I'm trying to understand your point.

    Darren
     
  12. Darrenss1

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    Exactly. :thumbsup:

    Darren
     
  13. Jedi Knight

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    John 3:14-15 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. All the thief did was look to Jesus like the children of Israel looked at the bronze snake to be healed as God COMMANDED. Those who didn't look as God commanded perished. Looking was exercising "faith" in what God said to do. Peter in the stormy weather saw Jesus walking on the water and said "Lord if it's you..COMMAND ME to come to you." When God gives a command and we obey ...that's faith!
     
    #13 Jedi Knight, Jul 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2009
  14. JSM17

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    Faith comes by the word of God Romans 10:17

    The word of God produces in us and understanding of what God has done for us in order for us to be forgiven. When we understand that we develope godly sorrow which leads one to repent (2 Corinthians 7:10).

    One can believe in Christ and not develope godly sorrow. This belief will not save because without an obedient faith this faith is dead.

    To confess means to say alike, to agree with what God says about His son, His word, His commandments.

    CONFESS, CONFESSION
    1. homologeo NT:3670, lit., "to speak the same thing" (homos, "same," lego, "to speak")
    (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

    If one does not have a change of heart because of the word of God in his heart then he cannot "speak the same things" that God has revealed to him.

    To confess in Jesus but deny plain bible truth about the things that accompany salvation is not true biblical confession.

    I agree, if we have faith yet have no works then our faith will not save us.

    God commands man to repent, confess, and be baptized. If these things are not done in faith then that faith is dead and will not save.

    The thief on the cross was not saved by faith alone. Those in the wilderness were not saved by faith alone, if they had not done what God commanded them to do then they would have died. Looking was an act of obedience (a work) that they had to act out in oder to be saved. Why would they look if they did not believe, they would not have?

    If somone believes in Christ yet denies he must be baptized for the forgiveness of sins then his faith is not obedient to the command of God.
     
  15. DHK

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    Not the faith to believe in Christ. That verse was written to Christians. You are taking it out of context.
    The question was asked concerning salvation, not the Christian walk. The above has nothing to do with salvation. All of the above was written to and pertains only to Christians. An ungodly man will never produce godly sorrow. That is impossible. An unsaved man will not come to an understanding of what God has done for him from the word of God. That is why Philip had to explain the Word of God to the Ethiopian eunuch. Unsaved people do not have the Holy Spirit to enlighten them of the truths of the Word of God. They need help from believers.
    An unbeliever will never develop godly sorrow. I don't believe you know what that verse means.
    It is simply an outward admission of one's faith.
    --We speak the same thing as we have faith in. The object of one's faith is Christ. When an unbeliever comes to Christ he confesses the object of his faith, Christ--as the Ethiopian eunuch did.
    This is the flip side of faith. If one has faith in Christ he will have a change in heart. It is the same thing.
    No one said it was.
    Works follow salvation; never are a part of salvation. For by grace are ye saved through faith not of works.
    There is not one verse that says that, therefore you are wrong.
    Not only does Eph.2:8,9 prove you wrong but also Rom.5:1
    "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God."
    One is justified by faith (faith alone), and that is all. You add to the Word of God--repent, confess, baptize. That is unbiblical and not rightly dividing the Word of truth.

    Yes, he was. Prove otherwise.
    God commanded them to look in faith. By faith they looked. It was by faith that they were saved. Their faith saved them, and only their faith.
    Looking was the outward expression of their faith. It was the object of their faith. The object of my faith is Christ. What is the object of your faith?
    Prayer is a command of Christ.
    Pray always.
    Meditating on the word of God is a command of God. Meditate on God's Word day and night. These are commands also. If you don't do these commands will you also not be saved? Where will the list stop?
    Baptism is a command also, but not a command to be saved. It is for Christians to obey after salvation; not a requirement for salvation.
     
  16. Darron Steele

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    Written to JSM17
    Here is JSM17's ultimate point to threads like this: if someone fails to be baptized, then s/he will not be saved.

    It does not matter if the person was a believer on Jesus Christ. If s/he fails to be properly baptized, then even with faith on Jesus Christ, s/he will not be saved.

    S/he hopes that we will treat inferences s/he makes on Bible texts as Scripture itself, and that we will overlook Scriptures that plainly state that salvation is assured by faith on Jesus Christ.

    I suspect ultimately, JSM17's purpose here is participation in the most common method in the United States Churches of Christ to grow: get Christians from other church groups. The eventual goal, I suspect, is to get Baptists here to think `Hey, our group is wrong -- let us leave it for the Churches of Christ.' It is the only explanation I can think of for why JSM17 would come here to dispute with a board whose membership is predominantly properly-baptized Christians. This has been suggested, and s/he has never denied it.

    By the way, please do not associate U. S. Churches of Christ too closely with the Churches of Christ in Australia and New Zealand. They come from the same movement, the Restoration Movement, but the U. S. Churches of Christ come from a rash of factiousness that infected the Restoration beginning in the mid-1800's. The U. S. Churches of Christ are slowly recovering from it, and resistance from within is fierce. The Churches of Christ in Australia and New Zealand never faced such; for decades they have served in partnership with outside church groups.
     
    #16 Darron Steele, Jul 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2009
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Which comes first? Believe, repent or confess?

    GE:
    Neither. God first loved us. Even before God loved us, He chose us, and showed us grace. So grace comes first. Grace worked faith; and faith worked consciousness of sins; and consciousness of sins worked repentance of sins; and repentance of sins work confession of sin; and confession of sin works confession of faith in God and in his free grace again. And it never stops for as long as a man shall live!.
     
  18. JSM17

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    If something lead or is unto salvation then it is impossible for it to happen only after salvation.

    Faith leads to salvation.
    Repentance leads to salvation.
    Confession leads to salvation.
    Baptism leads to forgiveness of sins.

    All the letters written (Epistles) are written to churches of saved people. Does this mean when an author speaks of those things that are unto salvation do not pertain to one coming to salvation?

    Expalin then how a man can believe nd repent apart from hearing the word of God? How would they know what to believe if it did not come from God's word?
     
  19. DHK

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    None of this is true.
    Faith in Christ and in his work gives one salvation. Salvation is a free gift. You have a great misunderstanding of salvation, if not (dare I say) a heretical one.
    And so? Your point is?
    The Book of Romans is the greatest theological treatise ever written on soteriology--the doctrine of salvation. Every aspect of it is explained in detail to the Christians at Rome. The emphasis of salvation is stated quite succinctly in a number of places such as:

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    --One is justified by faith and faith alone. That is salvation in a nutshell. If you add to this gospel message you preach another gospel and according to Galatians chapter one are accursed. That is a serious position to be in.

    Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
     
  20. Darrenss1

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    That is the worst way to prove anything. A false premise will always lead to a false conclusion even though the conclusion may fit the premise.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    There is a biblical reason why faith comes by hearing the word of God (whichever way you look at it), its not a natural process but spiritual. I think the bible is clear on that.

    Darren
     
    #20 Darrenss1, Jul 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2009

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