The Tree Of Life

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Jul 26, 2014.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
    22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    So how DEAD is Adam? How does he take of the tree of life if God told him and Eve, Dying thou shalt die! Did Christ who is the 2nd Adam the Lord from heaven telling Adam I will give you and offer of eternal life but its yours to accept or refuse. I want my PERSONAL SALVATION in Gods hands according verse 21 who stood in my stead and clothed me in his righteousness and not the other way around... What say you brethren is it the works of Christ Jesus Alone or does Jesus need the SINNER to help him!... That is my stand according to scripture... What is yours?
     
  2. Van

    Van
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    Not sure if I understand your point, Tyndale1946. Mainstream Baptists believe Adam died spiritually when he was separated from God, as illustrated by Adam being expelled from the garden and prevented from returning on his own to take from the tree of life.

    Adam physically lived many years on earth before he died.

    So from this passage we see that the death was spiritually, meaning separation from God, and that this death did not cause Adam to not want to take from the tree of life. In fact, God had to put up a barrier to prevent Adam from taking from the tree of life while Adam was "dead" spiritually.

    Secondly, can anyone who is separated from God take from the tree of life? Not according to this illustration. Thus our salvation is in God's hands, not ours. Romans 9:16 says salvation does not depend on the spiritually dead man who wills to be saved, or take of the tree of life, but on God.

    Thirdly, does God need a sinner to help Him? Of course not, but that seems a red herring. Does God desire for sinners to believe in Christ? Yes. Now you can reject God's redemption plan, and deny John 3:16, but Mainstream Baptists do not.

    The entire Bible, agrees with the view that God credits or not our faith in Christ as righteousness, turning our worthless filthy rag faith into righteousness, and if He does, He alone, puts us spiritually in Christ, ending or reversing our spiritual separation, for we are made alive together with Christ.
     
  3. Rippon

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    All Scripture Citations Are From The NIV

    You're Vanizing the text. It actually says :

    "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort,but on God's mercy."

    See also John 1:13:

    "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

    And look at James 1:18a :

    " He chose to give us birth through the word of truth...'
     
  4. comitatus1

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    Adam sinned once by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. For him to eat of the Tree of Life would simply have been another sin.

    This is likened to the people who came to the wedding feast uninvited.

    Chris
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    According to that great theologian John Gill that would have been impossible for Adam to take from the tree of life because after God through Adam and Eve out of the Garden Of Eden he placed himself there between the Cherubims... Psalms 80:1 Give ear , O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth .
     
  6. Rippon

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    All Scripture Citations Are From The NIV

    The Bible says in Gen. 3:24 :
    "After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

    In Ps. 80:1 :
    "Hear us, Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock,
    You who sit enthroned between the cherubim,
    shine forth"
     
  7. convicted1

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    I have actually preached about this very subject before. This is the most beautiful picture of salvation. The Tree of Life is a symbol of Christ. The flaming sword is a picture of the Word of God(Hebrews 4:12, Rev. 1:16, 2:12). The only way anyone can get to Jesus if through the gospel, the flaming sword. The only way Adam could get to the Tree of Life was through the flaming sword.
     
  8. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbs::applause::wavey:
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    I see we have the ploy of one Calvinist applauding the bogus views of another Calvinist, pushing fiction fast and furious.

    Romans 9:16 says salvation does not depend upon the man who wills but upon God. Look it up in any translation. Therefore fallen unregenerate men can will to be saved. Just read it folks.

    Scripture says Adam could take from the tree of life and live forever, so for Gill to say scripture does not mean what it says is just more Calvinist nonsense.

    Folks, verse after verse, passage after passage all say Calvinism is a mistaken view, unbiblical and wrong. Here we have two examples from Romans 9:16 all the way back to Genesis 3:22, which says
     
  10. steaver

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    Tell us why God had to block Adam and Eve from the tree of life if it be so that they no longer had a freewill, that they became so totally depraved, that they did not have any desire to even approach the tree of life and freely eat there of?
     
  11. steaver

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    So many questions for Calvinist, so few answers......................
     
  12. Winman

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    Van, this is the one thing you say wrong over and over again. If a person believes on Jesus they will absolutely be saved. There are not going to be persons that placed their faith in Jesus whom God rejects as you imply. This is complete error.

    Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    The word "come" here is just another word for believe or trust. Those who come to Jesus in their heart depending upon him alone to save them will absolutely be saved. They will in "no wise" be cast out.

    So, this is serious error on your part.

    Now, there are folks who think they are saved but are not, but this is not the same thing. These persons are not trusting in Jesus, but something else. The folks in Matthew 7 trusted in their works.

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Did these persons believe Jesus was Lord? YES, it is emphasized that they called Jesus, "Lord, Lord" twice.

    Then why weren't they saved if they believed Jesus is Lord? Because they were trusting in their own works to save them, and not Jesus alone. They boasted that they prophesied in Jesus's name, that they cast out devils in his name, and that they did many WONDERFUL WORKS in his name.

    Their faith wasn't in Jesus, they weren't relying on Jesus alone to save them, they were relying on their good works.

    The same with the Pharisee in Luke 18;

    Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
    10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    Was the Pharisee an atheist? No, he believed in God, yet he was not saved. Why? Because he "trusted in himself" as shown in vs. 9. He boasted of all his good works and service to God just as those false converts in Matthew 7.

    The publican on the other hand made no boast of being righteous or doing any good works. He simply cast himself completely on the mercy of God and depended on God alone to save him. And he was saved.

    So, what matters is the OBJECT of your faith, not the amount or quality. Jesus told his disciples if they had faith as a grain of mustard seed they could speak to a mountain and it would remove from it's place. You only need the tiniest speck of faith to be saved, but that faith must be in Jesus Christ alone, and not in our works, or that Jesus is "Lord" or that we belong to the right church, or any other reason.

    You need to quit casting doubt on God's sure promises.
     
  13. steaver

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    Tell us why God had to block Adam and Eve from the tree of life if it be so that they no longer had a freewill, that they became so totally depraved, that they did not have any desire to even approach the tree of life and freely eat there of.
     
  14. steaver

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    Tell us why God had to block Adam and Eve from the tree of life if it be so that they no longer had a freewill, that they became so totally depraved, that they did not have any desire to even approach the tree of life and freely eat there of.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Hi Winman, one of us is wrong, that is for sure. Folks can say they believe, and sincerely think they believe, but it is God alone who decides if they actually believe wholeheartedly. Your, we can proclaim Jesus and save ourselves thinking is in error. Salvation does not depend upon the man that wills to be saved, i.e. puts whatever level of faith in Christ, but upon God who may credit our faith as righteousness, or not. Matthew chapter 7 tells of folks who proclaimed Jesus as Lord, yet their "faith" was not credited as righteousness.

    John 6:37, the second "come" in the verse means to travel toward someone or something. It does not mean to trust. A different Greek word means trust.
    You can see the two different words in Philippians 2:24, where trust (Peitho) and come (Erchomai) both appear. This verse clearly shows the erchomai means travel (change location) and not trust.

    We agree on Matthew 7:21, their faith in Christ as Lord was lacking and so it was not credited as righteousness. It is God who decides who actually "trusts" not the person willing to trust to some degree.

    Ditto for Luke 18, the person proclaimed God, but he had not humbled himself before the Lord. The issue is not the requirement, scripture is clear, our difference is you think the person and not God saves by the good work of fervent faith. Not true. Salvation does not depend on the man that wills, no matter how hard he wills.
     
    #15 Van, Aug 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2014
  16. RLBosley

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    I'm not Winman, but I really want to respond to this: If God sometimes doesn't credit some people with righteousness when they truly believe, then how does anyone have assurance of salvation? What is the cut off point, how much faith do you have to have? What about when Jesus says that anyone who comes to him will never be cast?
     
  17. Van

    Van
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    Hi Steaver, your post 14 highlights how actual discussion of the topic is avoided by the Calvinists. Calvinism has been wrong for 400 years, but the Calvinists on this forum are not ready to accept they have been misled.
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    Hi RLBosley, first, you do not understand what I am saying. I did not say God sometimes doesn't credit some people with righteousness, but rather God sometimes does not credit some people's faith as righteousness.

    We have assurance of our salvation through faith in God, He keeps His promises. But how do we know our flawed faith was good enough to be saved? Again, wrong view, our faith is never good enough, it is a filthy rag, worthless. It is God who has mercy on us, we do not earn, with meritorious faith, salvation.

    Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. Does our heart convict us, are we hypocrites, or do we really put Christ on the throne of our heart.

    I have complete confidence, God saved me and gave me the Holy Spirit. When I wonder off, I am convicted, and I know I fall way short of the righteousness of our Lord. My life changed, because after I willed to be saved, trusting in Christ alone as both Lord (boss of my life) and savior, deep down I have joy and confidence, and have no need to prove I am worthy, because my faith is in Jesus.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    It is the work of the Holy spirit Himself to enable a sinner to call upon jesus as Lord, so God NEVERS denies that which He did to save a sinner!
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    More assertions, devoid of any scriptural reference. I could say God has put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars, with as much support, i.e. none.

    Now the gospel is the work product of the Holy Spirit, not only as the power behind the miracles, but also the one who inspired the writers of the gospel in scripture. So the Calvinists make a statement, when viewed biblically is true, but that is not what is actually being said, no what they mean is the Holy Spirit alters supernaturally the unregenerate with "irresistible grace" such that they are enabled irresistibly to trust in Christ.

    More double speak from the masters of deception.
     

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