The True Israel....Shadow and Reality

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    In a recent thread Agedman and I began to interact on this topic...let's see where it goes...here was the discussion points-

    These first two posts are from the other thread.....post #3 will begin this threads response and interaction



     
    #1 Iconoclast, Jul 28, 2013
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  2. Iconoclast

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
    Rm.....hold onto to it...do not over think...I am speaking plainly....watch-
    Jesus is the promised seed. singular...He alone

    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    Any and all of the elect are raised up.....as children of the PROMISE.
    Not as physical birth....but Spiritual birth Jew/Gentile raised up together in Jesus....

    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.



    They thought physical birth was what got them into the Kingdom...they were wrong as here;

    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

    36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

    38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    Jesus defines it for us!


    Spirit Baptism places us in Saving Union with Christ...the promised seed...

    so we He died, we died in Him, as He is raised, we are raised...that is a believers position......IN CHRIST.....the promised seed.

    There is no other place of refuge...He is our City of Refuge, He is the ARK,The High Priest, The Manna, He is ALL IN ALL...LORD OF ALL.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
    You are welcome We should be about this...[seeking truth] rather than what else takes place in here Even if someone holds something else, clarification is always in order, so if you believe different, at least you know why and what you reject ...and why biblically you reject it.

    Clarification is given , because no one attacked anyone personally. Agedman was trying to connect the dots I posted, but I did not give enough of an explanation.....I offered a second post that might help more.
    I have been working on this teaching or understanding of Redemptive History for years now,and find it helpful and instructive, in evangelism.

    Many persons are unchurched and see the world as the mess that it is , with violence and evil. Explaining the elements of the history of redemption in a condensed form gives meaning to it all and centers on the blood of the cross.

    This is the only hope for the lost and dying world.
     
    #2 Iconoclast, Jul 28, 2013
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  3. Iconoclast

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    Iconoclast

    Okay...we can do this.Glad we start off with many things we can agree on:wavey:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post

    The church does not "replace anything". It is an expansion and completion of God's eternal purpose which He has purposed in Christ Jesus the Lord.


    Jesus is the "True Israel".....Ot Israel was but a shadow of the true.

    22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn
    In the above passage, you are using it to show that Jesus was Israel because you align it with the son.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
    4 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

    15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
    I do not believe Israel equals Jesus.I think there is much more to it!

    Let me start this way; The reality is in heaven-

    23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    1]the patterns of the things in the heavens

    2]the heavenly things themselves

    3]the heavenly things themselves

    4]which were figures of the true

    This language in Hebrews 9 speaks about the unseen but eternal reality...

    That which was upon earth....was the shadow.

    So now in Ex4:22-

    In what way could the nation be described as a Son???

    1] Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    2] Let my son go, that he may serve me:

    Agedman....why was this language used in describing Israel to Pharoah?

    How can a nation be described as a Son??


    In what way was the Covenant Son to serve God?
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Jul 28, 2013
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  4. Iconoclast

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    15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
    I see this passage speaking of the REAL EXODUS.

    Moses,Pharoah, Israelites, Egyptians.....were part of the first Exodus.It really happened as recorded in scripture.

    I believe it happened and was recorded ,for our learning-

    10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


    5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

    6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

    8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

    9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

    10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

    11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.



    I believe these are linked in the NT in the book of Hebrews,as well as the Mt 2 passage.


    3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

    3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

    4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

    5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

    6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


    also at the transfiguration:
    30 And lo, two men were speaking together with him, who were Moses and Elijah,

    31 who having appeared in glory, spake of his outgoing that he was about to fulfil in Jerusalem,...........................................His Exodus
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Yes I know what you are saying.Paul in addressing the question of Israel....what happened to them? Why are gentiles coming to believe in the God of Abraham ,Issac, Jacob ?

    he had to address them, because they were first given the oracles of God,and that almost exclusively.....So he is both offering the God given explanation, but also showing how God is fulfilling the promises....NOW.

    This is mostly where are differences will manifest.

    Agedman.....when I was dispensational/premill....I was taught that was the only true teaching.I did not really give these other views a good and honest read.

    When i was in the frame of mind and under it's teaching...whenever I saw the quotes offered by Paul...in Romans 9-15.....I automatically put them off as ...FUTURE....for the millennial Kingdom on Earth. It was never even considered that it was a present reality. That was to "spiritualize " the passages. That was to keep separate Israel/Church. One a heavenly people, the other an earthly people.

    That scheme seeks to give an answer to all the verses.In a way...it does.
    Jesus wins.So I never thought to question it...at first.
    Now I have found that other christians ,also have sought to answer all the verses ,and they also answer all the verses...Jesus still wins! Only they speak of the current rule and reign from the Heavenly Jerusalem...right now.
    So as you are indicating a future "earthly "reign, on earthly Jerusalem..we will of course differ.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    here it is described in a study called the God with us...by Kit Culver:

    Agedman...this study has over 400 pages.....so I skimmed through and offered a sample///broken up into bite size segments......as time permits, you can read, enjoy,and interact with them...

    On sermonaudio. this is a 62 message series preached by Kit Culver...out in Colorado...
    the series was God with Us....the recovery of sacred space/


    Like the creational kingdom centered in Eden, the Israelite kingdom was
    preparatory and promissory. It portrayed and represented in a typological
    way God’s true and ultimate kingdom, but for that very reason was not
    that kingdom.
    The creational kingdom had God exercising His sovereign
    rule through man, the image-son, and so it was to be with the Israelite
    kingdom. I
    n a sense, Israel’s judges had performed that intermediary
    function during the early centuries of the theocracy (ref. again 1 Samuel
    8:4-6), but the emergence of a king was a necessary step in the history of
    Israel if the Israelite theocracy were to fulfill its typological role.
    This is perhaps most evident in the intimate connection the Scripture
    makes between David and Jesus Christ. David is the focal point of the
    royal aspect of Old Testament messianism, and David’s typological
    contribution as king over the covenant household obviously depended
    upon the existence of the monarchy. Without a monarchy in Israel there
    could be no David, and without such a king or kingdom there could be no
    valid typological correspondence between Israel as covenant kingdom and
    the true kingdom as realized in Jesus Christ.



    and here:
    But God’s promise of a house also meant that He would establish this
    son’s throne and kingdom forever (7:13). In this way Yahweh would grant
    to David an everlasting dominion (cf. 7:13, 16). Thus the covenant’s
    central promise of an enduring house for David – as it regarded both
    dynasty and dominion – was bound up in this promised descendent.
    2) At the same time, David’s desire to build a house for the Lord would not
    go unsatisfied. The same son in whom God would build David’s house
    would, in turn, build a house for Yahweh (v. 13a). This declaration, too, is
    layered with multiple meanings. First and most obvious is its reference to
    Solomon’s later work of building the Lord’s temple in Jerusalem (cf. 1
    Chronicles 28:1-10 with 1 Kings 5:1-5; 2 Chronicles 6:1-11). But just as
    David’s “house” involved both dynasty and dominion, so it was to be with
    Yahweh’s house.


    Though the covenant itself was not specific in this
    regard, David understood that God’s promise looked ultimately to the
    distant future (7:18-19), and therefore to a seed beyond Solomon (ref.
    Acts 2:22-31) and, by implication, to a house beyond the Jerusalem temple
    (cf. Zechariah 6:9-15; 1 Peter 2:1-10; Revelation 21:1ff)
    .
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Jul 28, 2013
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  7. Iconoclast

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    here is some more:
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    Agedman,

    I am not trying to bury you with quotes,lol...I am just skimming through and offering up OT verses with a NT reality applied to them...from a heavenly fulfillment and reign, here on earth....

    First Adam fails....last Adam does not

    First Exodus...under Moses....Moses gives way to joshua, looking for an earthly promised land....
    The true Exodus...In Jesus leads captivity Captive into the eternal state.
    Israel as Covenant Son fails.....Jesus as the SERVANT of the Lord, the Elect Servant does not fail.

     
  9. Iconoclast

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    Here we come to the incarnation:

     
  10. Iconoclast

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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    ...........
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Agedman
    In speaking of rom11...you said:

    Read the same passages but this time read them as if they are being fulfilled now as the gospel goes worldwide.....with Christ ruling now in the midst of His enemies.

    In rev20...it says they live and reign with Christ...1000yrs....where does it say it is on the earth and not from the heavenly Jerusalem?
     
  13. convicted1

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    Brother, keep up the good job. You're winning this debate hands down. :D :wavey: :flower: :love2:
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    :wavey: Willis....I was not sure anyone was reading this,haha.

    I am not so much even debating this...it is more, thinking or posting out loud:thumbs:

    I am working on this theme and have been for awhile now.I am open to imput.
    I emailed this pastor and he sent me 400 pgs of notes.....tons of verses and ideas about the reality of the Kingdom. God restoring man as a true image -bearer.....and the recovery of what many call Sacred Space...where we commune with God.

    When I get a hold of notes like this.....I try and consider them like the frame of a house.Then I seek to fill in and expand it scripturally.

    Theology can get deep sometimes. I set it out and simplify it when i can, so my gospel witness will be full of scripture ,and biblical theology.

    I believe that we need an answer for whoever God brings into our path....
    young ,old, rich, poor, educated ,simple.

    When I was first saved ...I got a prophecy sweet tooth[pre-mill] , I spent much time working through many books on it....many verses...

    Looking back...it hindered my growth some....much of it was repetition.

    I study Hebrews now, more than any other book...although Romans and Ephesians are with me all the time also.Hebrews describes our Lord in detail. Along with the glimpses of Him reigning now from the book of revelation, we can go forth confidently to the unsaved and speak to them about a Saviour who will save to the uttermost, them who come unto Him.

    Continue to grow in grace,my brother:thumbs:
     
  15. percho

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    I am going to read however a little hard to determine who said what. Need to take my time.

    In the mean time what do you do with these verses?

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Acts 2:33-35

    Also the about thirty three years Jesus walked the earth what was he anointed to do? See Luke 4:18,19 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Also Acts 10:36-38 I will not paste basically the same.

    Is this the anointing of the Prophet?

    Was he a priest at this time?

    Is Jesus the Christ presently acting as a prophet? Priest?

    Give your thoughts concerning Luke 19:11,12,15 relative to Daniel 2:34.35.39
    where I understand the stone to be the kingdom of God on the earth. Also Daniel 7:13,14
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    percho

    .

    take your time and enjoy the verses....It is all good! the first two posts were from another thread...In post 3 i started a response.
    This is a big topic with much to consider,but well worth the time.

    you have picked some really good ones,lets look-


    I now enjoy these verses fully.Peter is quoting from psalm 110.....which is quoted 6 times in the NT....
    It speaks of Jesus ruling in the ...midst of His enemies.....

    Jesus taught similar things in Lk 19...a kingdom parable;
    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.


    In psalm 110 it reads this way;
    2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

    The second half of Isa...40-66 is the gospel in the OT. much truth for us is right there.....many of the passages are spoken of as now fulfilled.


    Yes...Jesus is the Prophet, Priest, and King.....
    he is the greater than Moses-

    15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

    18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    and in zech 6:
    12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

    13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both





    Yes...you are thinking solid on this......Daniel 2 speaks of the everlasting Kingdom being set up....Dan 7.....is the view of
    Jesus ascension to the throne as he ascended in Acts 1.....
    the kingdom parable in Lk. 19...speaks of the time from the ascension to the last day.....it implies a long time when combined with other portions of scripture...by itself you cannot stretch it that far, but i can see where it fits with many of the other kingdom parables

    Here are 4 sermons that speak of Our Lord as the Servant of The lord from Isa...that speak of His preparation-

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11905165947

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=1190517213

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=11905171145

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=11905174020

    There is so much to be said about these verses, however I believe the Spirit of God gave this pastor special insight in opening up these verses...I think he got it right.....enjoy:wavey::thumbs:


     
    #16 Iconoclast, Jul 29, 2013
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  17. Iconoclast

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    Agedman,

    Ok.....so agedman...what do you think?
     

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