The Upper Room and Pentecost!

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, May 16, 2013.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    I got to thinking....and I'd like an honest. Biblical answer.

    When the folks in the Upper Room were surprised with a mighty rushing wind, fire above their heads and the ability to speak in other tongues, what in the OT did they have to base this experience upon? In fact, what would have happened to the Pentecost experience had those in the Upper Room stopped and said to each other, this is "freaky" and "not of God!""Let's form a committee to look into this thing that just happened and see where we should proceed from this point?"

    What if those in the room decided that this must have been a trick of the devil, because there was nothing Jesus did while He was here that resembled what just happened? After all, they didn't have the NT to go to? They had nothing but faith to act upon, and if they'd hesitated, Pentecost would not have happened.

    Sure they were told to go and pray. Sure they knew God would send His Spirit to them.....BUT, none of them knew how the Spirit would come; what it would appear as; and what the results of that visit would bring to them.

    They were operating blindly. Isn't that what faith is according to Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."???

    No one really has all the answers, but we do know one thing: We serve a supernatural God. A God who can do anything, to anyone, anytime He so chooses. So who are we to question what He is doing when it comes to Charismatics?

    Sure some are scam artists, playing off emotions of the weak. In fact, these charlatans get rich off these people, leaving these folks wounded and disheveled for a long time to say the least.

    But, there are those who are genuine, and that is where none of us have a right to throw a wet blanket over the entire movement and claim it is harmful to all.

    After all, how many folks have been hurt, forever, by the Baptist church to name one? How many people have been turned off with the internal politics of the church and left disenchanted and frustrated and promising to never again have anything to do with organized religion?

    The gossip, hate, and power grabs of the organized church have turned as many away from God as any bad charismatic group.

    This is why I say, What is done behind closed doors, is up to those who do it? If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to join them. At least NOT me. I wouldn't want to have anyone who hates the movement, as much as some of you, be a part of the movement without first seeing them really changed.

    The gifts are received by faith. And there is nothing like the gifts in the OT. The gifts and fruits are all NT stuff, and there are really no cut and dry rules in place about when they started or were to end. That is all personal dogma, and judgment is what killed many one time, well intentioned Baptists, who either stopped being Baptist, and went in another direction or died on the vine.

    New Flash:::::::the Baptist church is not the end all to religion. However, you will have to wait until you get to heaven to see there are a great number of folks from all denominations joining us there. I look to that day. The day when religion's ends and true fellowship begin.
     
  2. awaken

    awaken
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    I believe the hope for church must begin with a total commitment to ALL of the Scripture, including its miraculous and supernatural endowments!

    The Holy Spirit can not be contained or controlled by the flesh. God desires for us to be continuously filled with the Holy Spirit.

    Satan loves to counterfeit experiences! Counterfeits always make copies of something valuable!

    GOD is still looking for those that will worship Him in SPIRIT AND TRUTH!
     
    #2 awaken, May 16, 2013
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  3. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
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    1 Cor 1:22...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

    The SIGN GIFTS died out with the apostles how many times do you guys have to be told this?

    They were NO longer needed to authenticate the speaker as each one heard the gospel in their own language....we now have the bible the only revelation from God.

    No one has answered me this?...if tongues really are for today then how do you explain

    1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

    Also there is NO history of TONGUES after ACTS and till 1901 and later 1961...unless you counts CULTS or other non Christian sects.

    http://www.bible.ca/tongues-history.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
     
  4. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
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    Some Christians talk in tongues. So do some Mormons, some devil-possessed spiritists, heathen witch doctors in Africa and Asia. Ages ago many heathen religions talked in tongues. It is not of itself necessarily of God.
    In his book, New Testament Teaching on Tongues, Dr. Merrill Unger calls attention to this fact, on pages 163-165:

    That tongues can be and are counterfeited by demon spirits is evidenced by the fact that spiritistic mediums. Muslim dervishes, and Indian fakirs speak in tongues. It must be remembered by those who try to make tongues a badge of spirituality or a status symbol of saints who have attained the height of spiritual experience, that speaking in tongues and their interpretation are not peculiar to the Christian church but are common in ancient pagan religions and in spiritism both ancient and modern.
    The very phrase "to speak with tongues" (Greek glosais lalein, Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19-6; 1st Cor. 12-14; cf. Mark 16:17) was not invented by New Testament writers, but borrowed from the ordinary speech of pagans. Plato's attitude toward the enthusiastic ecstasies of the ancient soothsayer (mantis, diviner,) recalls the Apostle Paul's attitude toward glossolalia among the Corinthian believers.
    Virgil graphically describes the ancient pagan prophetess "speaking with tongues." He depicts her disheveled hair, her panting breast, her change of color, and her apparent increase in stature at the god (demon) came upon her and filled her with this supernatural afflatus. Then her voice loses its mortal ring as the god (demon) speaks through her, as in ancient and modern necromancy (spiritism).
    Phenomena of this type are common among savages and pagan peoples of lower culture. Ecstatic utterances interpreted by a person in a sane state of mind have been verified, In the Sandwich Islands, for example, the god Oro gave his oracles through a priest who "ceased to act or speak as a voluntary agent, but with his limbs convulsed, his features distorted and terrific, his eyes wild and strained, would roll on the ground foaming at the moth, and reveal the will of the god in shrill cries and sounds violent and indistinct, which the attending priests duly interpreted to the people."

    So, intelligent and concerned people will want to find out what is of God and what is of evil spirits.
    The matter is so important, let me call to the witness stand again the assistant professor in Grace Theological Seminary, Dr. Charles R. Smith. He says on pages 20-22 of his book, Tongues in Biblical Perspective:

    IN NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS.--Tongues occupied a significant place in ancient Greek religion. The seeress at Delphi, not far from Corinth, spoke in tongues. According to Plutarch (A.D. 44-117), interpreters were kept in attendance to explain her incoherent utterances. Many scholars have stated that tongues were experienced in the mystery religions (Osirius, Mithra, Eleusinian, Dionsyian, and Orphic cults). Some have concluded that the unintelligible lists of "words" in the "magical papyri" and in certain Gnostic "prayers" are records of ecstatic utterances. About A.D. 180 Celsus reported ecstatic utterances among the Gnostics. Lucian of Samosata (A.D. 120-198) described tongues speaking as it was practiced by the devotees of the Syrian goddess, Juno.

    Today shamans (witch doctors, priests, or medicine men) in Haiti, Greenland, Micronesia, and countries of Africa, Australia, Asia, and North and South America speak in tongues. Several groups use drugs to aid in inducing the ecstatic state and utterances. Voodoo practitioners speak in tongues. Buddhist and Shinto priest have been heard speaking in tongues. Moslems have spoken in tongues, and an ancient tradition even reports that Mohammed himself spoke in tongues. According to his own account, after his ecstatic experiences he found it difficult to return to "logical and intelligible speech" (Kelsey, p. 143).

    IN MENTAL ILLNESS.--The fact hat nonreligious tongues speaking often occurs in association with certain mental illnesses is well documented. Psychiatrists have reported it in association with schizophrenia, neurosis, and psychosis. Probably all psychiatrists and psychologists are aware of the possibility of psychic damage resulting from tongues speaking (Kelsey, p.227). It was reported that following the extended tongues meeting held by Aimee Semple McPherson, founder of the Church of the Foursquare Gospel, mental institutions in the area of her meeting were overburdened. The Episcopalian church financed a study commission which concluded that tongues are "not per se a religious phenomenon" and may appear among those "who are suffering from mental disorders as schizophrenia and hysteria" (Jennings, p.11)

    IN SPIRITISM.--Tongues speaking occurs among anti-Christian spiritistic mediums. Contrary to popular belief among tongues speakers, a few years ago the European Pentecostal Conference admitted that "tongues might occur apart from the Spirit's action" (Brown, p.151)

    IN THE DEMON POSSESSED.--Even Pentecostal authors grant that there are cases where demonic influence is apparently responsible for tongues utterances. Some feel that this is why "the gift of discernment of spirits" is necessary.

    Again on page 38 Dr. Smith says:

    In extra biblical literature this word was used to describe the "inspired" utterances of diviners. Moulton and Milligan cite three occurrences of the word in Vettius Valens where it designates irrational or unintelligible speech. It is stated that the speakers' minds had "fallen away," they were overcome with "madness," and they spoke in "ecstasy" (p. 72). Apoptheggomai was almost a technical term for describing the speech of the oracle-givers, diviners, prophets, exorcists, ecstatics, and other "inspired" persons (Kittel, I, 447; Arndt and Gingrich, p. 101). The basic idea is "an unusual utterance by virtue of inspiration." Though the word obviously cannot be limited to unintelligible speech, it is certainly appropriate for such. Its usage in Greek literature, in fact, definitely suggests a connection with ecstatic, often unintelligible, utterances.

    If a Mormon talks in tongues with his false religion, is that speaking with tongues the Bible gift of tongues? I think not. If an unconverted Catholic who prays to Mary, confesses to a priest, hopes to get out of purgatory if enough people pay for masses and if he hasn't sinned badly, talks in tongues, is that the Bible gift of tongues? I think not.
    Evidently Satan can have people talk in tongues also, and we need to carefully consider that when we talk about the gift of tongues.
     
  5. awaken

    awaken
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    So which one do you seek? I do not need a sign to believe! I already believe! I do seek God's wisdom!

    NOWHERE in scripture can you prove this!

    Were miracles a sign to JUST authenticate the speaker or was it to authenticate the Word the speaker was preaching?

    Again, believers do not need a sign! Do we not still have unbelievers on earth today? You still have not answered as to what sign you believe it was to the unbelievers..was it one of judgement or a sign that the ones that spoke in tongues were really baptized in the Holy Ghost?

    You need to study your history a little deeper! Are you going to prove the Bible wrong by history?

    In Acts when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost! Was He/his power taken away? I thought the scriptures said He will never leave or forsake us? So who did the forsaking? It was not God! We as a church have lost our first love and we need to return to the first works!
     
  6. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
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    the word CEASED means STOP and never start up again!


    Question: "What is the gift of speaking in tongues?"

    Answer: The first occurrence of speaking in tongues occurred on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4. The apostles went out and shared the gospel with the crowds, speaking to them in their own languages: “We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:11). The Greek word translated tongues literally means “languages.” Therefore, the gift of tongues is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language. In 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14, Paul discusses miraculous gifts, saying, “Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?” (1 Corinthians 14:6). According to the apostle Paul, and in agreement with the tongues described in Acts, speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God’s message in his or her own language, but it is useless to everyone else unless it is interpreted/translated.

    A person with the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30) could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues speaker to everyone else, so all could understand. “For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13). Paul’s conclusion regarding tongues that were not interpreted is powerful: “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue” (1 Corinthians 14:19).

    Is the gift of tongues for today? First Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Some point to a difference in the tense of the Greek verbs referring to prophecy and knowledge “ceasing” and that of tongues “being ceased” as evidence for tongues ceasing before the arrival of the “perfect.” While possible, this is not explicitly clear from the text. Some also point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God's oncoming judgment. First Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a “sign to unbelievers.” According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased.

    At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

    God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they did not have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.

    gotquestions.org
     
  7. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
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    Question: "What is the gift of speaking in tongues?"

    Answer: The first occurrence of speaking in tongues occurred on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4. The apostles went out and shared the gospel with the crowds, speaking to them in their own languages: “We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:11). The Greek word translated tongues literally means “languages.” Therefore, the gift of tongues is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language. In 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14, Paul discusses miraculous gifts, saying, “Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?” (1 Corinthians 14:6). According to the apostle Paul, and in agreement with the tongues described in Acts, speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God’s message in his or her own language, but it is useless to everyone else unless it is interpreted/translated.

    A person with the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30) could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues speaker to everyone else, so all could understand. “For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13). Paul’s conclusion regarding tongues that were not interpreted is powerful: “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue” (1 Corinthians 14:19).

    Is the gift of tongues for today? First Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Some point to a difference in the tense of the Greek verbs referring to prophecy and knowledge “ceasing” and that of tongues “being ceased” as evidence for tongues ceasing before the arrival of the “perfect.” While possible, this is not explicitly clear from the text. Some also point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God's oncoming judgment. First Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a “sign to unbelievers.” According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased.

    At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

    God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they did not have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.

    gotquestions.org
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    I am content to have the SAME as paul/peter/John had, which is the infilling of the HS, and the word of God , which is the Bible, NOT revelations/prophecies from extra biblcal sources!

    The church does NOT need more healings/miracles and signs to give out, it needs to get into practical living, and having the truth of our changed lives mirroring Jesus, to be living Epistles for them to read!

    Spurgeon church big soul winner, as was moody church, don;t think they were having tongues and healings and a miracle a day keeps satan at bay going on!
     
  9. awaken

    awaken
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    Well, you can stay in that contentment!

    Tell that to the ones that need a healing touch from God! I hope you are looking into the mirror of God's word to be more like Jesus!

    Your point! I have seen several people myself come to know the Lord without signs and wonders! Myself included!
     
  10. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
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    Good point, many great men of God in the past and today after Acts never spoke in tongues...if anyone should it would be I as well, since my conversion was through a pentecostal man and I went to his church (where babbling was in abundance) and they tried to talk me into it, even said when I get baptized (which I asked to do to show everyone I meant business with the decision I made) they said I would speak in tongues or I wasn't spirit filled...I already was spirit filled all the way.

    I noticed how the words were the same over and over and nothing became of it.....they even tried to TEACH me how to do it. I was very happy to get back to Ca a few months later (as not to be brainwashed) and God put me in a Baptist church that taught to base everything on sound doctrine and not EMOTIONS!

    Mature Christian do not speak in tongues...just saying ;)
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Interesting to do a study on paul and the holy spirit, as he will mention refilling, empowering, power, but not needing tongues/signs and wonders...

    Wonder if he had a "full gospel?"
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Didn't jesus say that a wicked people look for signs and wonders?

    ONLY sign that counts is jesus raised form the dead, FAR motre important thn all tongues so called babbling today combined!
     
  13. awaken

    awaken
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    Sorry you had a bad experience! But that does not prove.. by the Word of God... they have ceased!

    By the way tongue is not a sign of maturity! With or without them!
    The maturity problem in Corinthians was the lack of love and not considering the edification of others!
     
  14. awaken

    awaken
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    I am not looking for signs in order to believe! I believed in Jesus Christ without the manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

    He was speaking of the ones that need a sign in order to believe what he says! I believe what he says is true before I see anything manifested in my life!
    As a matter of fact faith is believing before you see! We believe HIS WORD first!
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Do yuo believe that God gives us gifts to heal/miracles/tongues, or that God still does that in response to prayers, IF it be His will?
     
  16. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    And....

    ....the babble begins :BangHead:
     
  17. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    More....

    ....babble.......:sleep:
     
  18. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    Seen this .....

    .....on another post.....trivial babble. Come on Matt, don't you have something new to cut and paste?:tear:
     
  19. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    When will it end...

    You calim tongues ended.....when will your cutting and pasting of the same trivial stuff end?????? Come one at least find some new stuff to cut and paste :BangHead:
     
  20. righteousdude2

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    No ONe Has Responded, Intelligently, to this...

    I asked a what if, and still just got nothing but babble and an attempt to fillabuster this thread.

    When will the opposer's present answers to the what if? What did those in the upper room have to base their experience on? I'll tell you the answer: Not one thing. It was new, unchatered territory, and they had to take a leap in faith. They had nothing to go to and see if what they were about to do with what they just experienced was of the devil or of God?

    Yet, they believed, and a great work followed. Even though we have aBible, there are things not mentioned in the Bible that cover EVERYTHING that a supernatural God will and can do...which is whey we are told in Hebrews, that faith is believing in that which is not able to be seen. That which has not steadfast, rock hard answers. The gifts given, are given for certain things to certain people, and we have a choice to step out in faith, or stand around giving everyone in the fellowship, wet willie's while we wait for the committee to give us a thumbs up or thumbs down.

    This is why the church is always playing catch up in life. It is afraid to act on faith, or do things outside of the box. That church will be in deep water when the end times come, and they fail to look like what they have wrapped up in a neat little box and sat in the corner of the church closet, waiting to pull out and open when the right day comes. :tear:
     

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