The Ways of God. Ridiculed or accepted?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by preacher4truth, Jan 11, 2011.

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  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    Why would God call those whom He knows will not believe?

    My wife and I discussed this last evening. I shared with her the view that some on here call foolish, that we teach God works upon those whom He knows ultimately will not receive Him. This is called a waste of time from those, among other things. My wife and I understood and discussed that God has always done this.

    Further, some (several probably) have said it is utter foolishness to say, as believing Calvinists, that God calls to repentance and works on those whom He knows won't receive Him. They call this utter nonsense and mock it. In other words, since we, Calvinists know only the elect will receive Him, they say it is ridiculous for God to call all to Him, knowing some will not come to Him, so thus He should only call His elect.

    They do and say this because they are not familiar with Gods' ways and it shows a considerate lack of understanding God, and His ways, and His dealings with man, which is typical in churches today.

    He has always done this, calling those who cannot and will not obey.

    God called the Israelites into the Promised Land to destroy all others therein. Why call them when He knew they would not do it? By the argument of some it is foolishness to call someone to do a thing that he will not do.

    God gave us the Law to keep. Why would He do that? He knew we would not keep it, nor could we. According to some, it is nonsense when God is calling on someone to do something He full well knows they will not keep.

    God gave us the 10 commandments. Why would He do this?

    God called for Saul to destroy all of the Amalekites, yet He knew he would not do it. Why bother?

    God has done this many times in Scripture, calling those whom He knows would not do what He has said or commanded.

    He called His people Israel over and over and over to Him in the OT and knew they would not do it.

    God called Jeremiah to preach to people who would not listen.

    The same God then now commands everyone to repent, knowing that not all will.

    Those who believe God calling and working on those who will ultimately reject Him are missing the point about God. He will do as He wills. Those who are His will receive Him, His irresisitible grace will win out. Who are you to say it is nonsense for God to do so?

    God is way above our thoughts, and this is how He works in history and among mankind, yet some ridicule this. I'd be very cautious to call how He works, yes, even calling those who will not receive Him, anything other than glorious and Sovereign.

    I think God is simply showing us who they are that know Him, who his sheep really are, and only those who are really His will obey His voice and come to Him. On the other side of the coin He justly shows those who are already condemned.
     
  2. Winman

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    I will agree that this is a difficult question to answer. Now, you will not understand this, but I believe God knows all things, but at the same time he does not know them until they happen.

    As crazy as that sounds, and I agree it sounds crazy, there is scripture to support this. We have the recent thread about God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Just as Abraham was about to kill Isaac, God stopped him and said,

    Gen 22: 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

    According to God's own words, he did not know for a certainty that Abraham would obey and sacrifice Isaac until Abraham demonstrated he would do so.

    Now of course, this is going to cause a big uproar with folks who insist God knows everything. And I agree that there is scripture that says this.

    So, I cannot understand this, but I believe this because this is what God said. I believe the scriptures perfectly true. God cannot lie, and God does not mislead, he says exactly what he means.

    I have my own theory on this, that to me explains how God can know and not know at the same time, but I am not absolutely sure it is true. Therefore I am a little hesitant to introduce my theory, I would never want to introduce error to anyone.

    But the fact is, there are some portions of scripture that seem to contradict themselves. I personally do not believe this possible. I think the imagined contradiction results from us not fully understanding God's word, and not that the scriptures actually contradict themselves.

    But you cannot simply reject scripture like Gen 22:12 simply because it refutes your personal doctrine. We need to accept God's word and ask him to help us understand it.
     
  3. preacher4truth

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    I see what you are trying to say Winman. One verse does not do away with all of Scripture. The Lord knows all, He knew all in detail that would happen to Him on the Cross, He knew how Peter would die, He prophesied of coming events through the prophets, as also in Revelation of things to come, for He could clearly see them.

    Your proof text does not do away with the rest of the counsel of God.

    God knows all, is omniscient. This is a fact. Your version of God differs from Scripture. Your version of God limits Him and your take is unscriptural and doesn't consider the whole counsel of God. You can't throw out all of the above truths that prove He knows all with one verse. I don't believe the God you are painting is the God of Scripture.

    The problem is when people ridicule God for calling sinners unto Him, when He knows some will not believe. But this is His way of dealing with man. It always has been. It doesn't mean He doesn't know. He knows those that are His, and knew those that were His when He came here in the flesh.
     
  4. Luke2427

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    I do not think it should even be allowed on baptistboard to spew this mess that God is NOT omniscient.

    Either he KNOWS all things and never learns anything and there is never a time when doesn't know everything or he doesn't.

    Your position is outside the bounds of orthodoxy.

    This is the problem with lay theologians. When you start trying to be a theologian and deal with things that are way above your head you go directly into dangerous, dangerous doctrine.
     
    #4 Luke2427, Jan 11, 2011
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  5. preacher4truth

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    It is what happens when someone thinks they have found some great truth within one verse.

    Consider the whole cousel of God.

    This is how some groups get into much trouble. This is further proof that some can get into serious trouble with Scripture is simple and/or Scripture only mentality.
     
  6. Winman

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    No, you are doing exactly what I just suggested you should not do. You are rejecting God's own words because they do not fit your presuppositions.

    Now, you can intepret scripture any way you choose, that is your right, but don't condemn persons like myself who take the scriptures literally. God said he did not know in Gen 22:12 and I believe what God said. I don't understand it, but I believe it. You have no right to tell me I am wrong, you could very well be wrong. You seem unable to accept you could ever be wrong, a very dangerous attitude indeed.

    Edit- And this is not the only example in scripture. Look what God said to Adam;

    Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
    10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

    Now, these verses are very confusing if you believe God knows all things. First, he asked where Adam was, second, he asked Adam who told him he was naked, third, he asked if Adam had eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    You can rationalize this anyway you choose, but the fact is that the implication is God did not know these things. Can I understand that? No. Nevertheless, that is what these verses imply.

    So, those who say God does not know something until it occurs have scripture to support their view whether it is easily understood or not.
     
    #6 Winman, Jan 11, 2011
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  7. glfredrick

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    Though the elect are set in place before the beginning of time, the effectual call may happen at any time in the elect person's life, and it may or may not be when WE think it will happen.

    Thinking two things about God's election destroys God's sovereignty.

    1. That we can number the elect.

    2. That we know the timing of God's dealing with His elect.

    God can and will deal with those who He has elected when He sees fit, and in the manner that He desires.

    Once again... Election does not equal "salvation." Election equals election.

    How difficult is that concept to grasp?
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    I pretty much agree with that. Who isn't grasping this?
     
  9. preacher4truth

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    You have painted the attribute of omniscience off of one verse of Scripture. That is a no no. A big no no.

    That is no way to interpret Scripture. Other and many passages of Scripture totally throw out your uinscriptural take. You limit God with your teaching.

    I agree with Luke that you shouldn't be able to teach this here on BB. It is unorthodox and flies in the face of the whole counsel of God and His omniscience.

    You are clearly wrong.

    You have got to quit proof-texting.
     
  10. matt wade

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    Regarding the Gen 22:12 passage, it is the angel of the Lord speaking. Is it possible that it is Jesus Christ and He didn't know until Abraham made the choice? We know from other verses (Mark 13:32) that Jesus is not privy to all information that the Father has.
     
  11. Winman

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    Don't tell me how to interpret scripture, I have probably posted hundreds of verses of scripture that easily refute all 5 points of Calvinism and so have many others here. You guys rarely even post scripture to support your views, but some commentary from Calvin, or Piper, or Augustine. These are just men, and are fallible like the rest of us.

    I am not teaching anything here, I am simply pointing out that there is much scripture that argues God does not know some things until they happen. I didn't make this stuff up, get out of those writings of men and look in the Bible and you will see them for yourself. Here is another example:

    Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
    10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

    Your argument is not with me, it is with God's word.
     
  12. jbh28

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    False teaching! Winman denies the Omniscience of God!
    John 6:64
    BIBLE: (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

    WINMAN: For Jesus Knew not from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him." Jesus didn't know until it happened...... SAD!

    Winman, you are ignorant of how language works. God asking a question doesn't mean he doesn't know the answer already. Winman, what is your screen name for the Baptist Board? Understand now?

    He won't listen to you.
     
    #12 jbh28, Jan 11, 2011
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  13. preacher4truth

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    I know bro. It's unreal that people believe this stuff, especially from a guy who says the Bible is so simple. Someone that says the Bible is simple has other areas that need to be tended to.

    Thanks for your input.

    :thumbs:
     
  14. preacher4truth

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    Search my threads. I don't quote those fellows, I quote Scripture. Another wrong assumption on your part. Good luck finding where I have quoted them. :)

    I will continue to tell you how and how not to interpret Scripture when you are in error.

    God knew where Abel was. You again fall short of proper analysis of Gods Word.
     
  15. Rippon

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    You sound like Voltaire who said he alone was able to vanquish Christianity from the face of the earth.

    And we are quoting you, to establish that you have nary a clue.

    Of course you are. You are propagating your views and wish others to believe the same.

    Pure,unadulterated bunk.

    Another memorable nonsense quip from your keystrokes.
     
  16. Winman

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    I bet I have posted John 6:64 at least 50 times in the past year saying that God knows from the beginning all who will believe. I believe this, and this is whom I have always said I believe God elects. But you Cals have denied every time that election could be based on foreknowledge. Electing those whom he knows will believe would refute Unconditional Election.

    I believe God knows all things. At the same time I am confronted with scripture that clearly suggests he does not know some things until they happen such as would Abraham truly sacrifice Isaac in Gen 22:12.

    I don't understand this, well, I think I do, but it is purely a theory of mine and could possibly be error. I am not like many here who believe themselves infallible.

    Look, if you guys want to try to get me banned, that is your privilege. I am showing the truth as I see it in scripture. But I will say this, this forum permits all sorts of controversial views, we have Preterists, those who believe in the Gap theory, those who believe the world billions of years old...
    All sorts of controversial views.

    I submit scripture to support my views. If you think I am wrong, then simply refute the scripture I submit.
     
    #16 Winman, Jan 11, 2011
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  17. jbh28

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    I know you have quoted this verse, that's why I did. But, I thought you just got done saying God doesn't know things till they happened? Can't have it both ways. A circle isn't a square.
    It's called language. The Bible is clear that God is unchangeable and all knowing. God asking questions doesn't mean that He doesn't know the answers. It's like God testing Abraham. It wasn't for God to learn the answer, but for Abraham.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Really?!? I would have never guessed.....:tongue3:
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    And we calvinists are told we ruin all threads and get them off track and blah blah blah blah blah.

    I guess my OP is going to go nowhere...LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!


    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
     
  20. Robert Snow

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    We all have opinions, your is no more valid than anyone else's.

    If I controlled the BB, I might not allow Calvinist to post here, but again, that's my opinion.

    I put up with the seemingly millions of pro-Calvinists threads, you can put up with a few you don't agree with.
     
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