The word "believe"

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Crabtownboy, Sep 18, 2014.

  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
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    As stated in another thread the word believe does not have the same meaning as it did prior to 1600 and this has impact on our theology.

     
  2. Bro. Curtis

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    This is heresy.

    Faith cometh from hearing, and hearing from the word of God.
     
    #2 Bro. Curtis, Sep 18, 2014
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  3. Aaron

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    Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom. 4:3.
     
  4. percho

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    The word of God that is heard is that before the world began God said I will send my Son into the yet to be created world to be obedient unto death and I at this time give a promise, "the hope of eternal life," for that Son.

    That is the word of God to be heard.

    The Faith, the belief, is that in Jesus the Christ born of the virgin Mary, the above came to pass.

    Before the faith, the belief came says Gal 3:23, AND
    After the coming of the faith, the belief states Gal 3:25.

    When Jesus born of Mary learned and became obedient unto death even the death of the cross and God his Father, whatever that means, gave him eternal life from the dead, Jesus became, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Never before this had anything/anyone been given eternal life. The hope we are now currently heirs, not inheritors, of.

    Jesus is our faith that we also will be given eternal life, our hope See Titus 3:7.

    Show me from scripture where the above isn't correct.

    I think that says basically the same as Crabtownboy posted.

    I would like to ask, can one believe what God has spoken without the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth which spreads abroad in our hearts the love of God, therefore, because God first loved us, we can love him.

    and not terrified in anything by those opposing, which to them indeed is a token of destruction, and to you of salvation, and that from God; because to you it was granted, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also on behalf of him to suffer; Phil 1:28.29
     
  5. percho

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    Did God call one man Abraham unto belief?
     
  6. Bro. Curtis

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    Can you rephrase this into an actual question ?
     
  7. Van

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    In a discussion about what a word used in scripture means, what relevance does the meaning of the word used in translation have?

    Are we to say the Greek word used in John 3:16 means what the English word "believe" meant prior to 1600? Why not start with the Greek word and its historical meanings. Then look at how the word is used in each of the passages it appears in, and pick a translation which conveys the most probably word meaning, based on context?

    In John 3:16, btw, we are to believe "in" Him, with "in" being a translation choice for a Greek word that literally means "into."

    Finally, one of the common views, expressed for example in post #4, is that people cannot believe, based on having the gospel presented to them. You need that plus they say some magical alternation of your fallen spirit/soul such that you can understand and believe. Some call it prevenient grace, others irresistible grace.
     
  8. percho

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    Does one have to have the Spirit of truth to believe God? And or to believe in God?
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

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    How about, believe ON God ? Or "Into" like Van correctly stated.

    Yeah, I guess this is where the Calvinist stuff starts. Not sure about this "spirit of truth", but I think God calls his children to repentance.

    The bible says the devils believe, and they tremble. The tremble because they know the truth.

    You can have a form of Godliness and STILL deny his power. You can quote a few verses of Christ's words on how to treat people, yet ignore everything he says about repentance.

    Does belief in God save ? I don't think it does.
     
  10. percho

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    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16,17
    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 17:7,13

    I think my question is valid. It may not be valid.
     
  11. percho

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    Would it be fair to say that if one believes in God, that he on his own went from unbelief to belief, whereas if one believes into God, that he has been translated by a force outside of himself from unbelief unto belief?
     
  12. Van

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    People can say most anything. How about would it be true to say if a person believes in the name of God, i.e. what he or she has learned about God, then he or she can believe in the name of Jesus, i.e. what he or she has learned about Jesus, that He is the Son of God and the Messiah. Does that result in magically entering Christ? Nope. Now if God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, then God spiritually places us in Christ. So in order to believe into Him, God must accept and credit our worthless faith as righteousness.

    Do we enter Christ automatically, or do we enter Christ by God putting us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit?
     
  13. Crabtownboy

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    There has to be more in believe or belief than just mental acknowledgment. Even the demons believe [James 2:19], but they do not belove ... the meaning of believe before 1600

     
  14. DHK

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    It doesn't really what the English word meant before 1600 and how it changed. The NT was written in Greek. We translate from the Greek to English not from the pre-1600 English to English.

    The word "conversation" in 1611 meant "behavior" but now it means more along the lines of discussion--to converse.

    Prevent meant to precede. Now it means to stop.

    Words change meaning over time. Thankfully the NT was written in Koine Greek, and the meanings of those words do not keep changing.
     
  15. Greektim

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    Careful w/ prepositions. They don't have literal meanings. They are the most contextually guided words that simply answer questions.
     
  16. Aaron

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    CrabMaoBoy is trying to say that one's love of his own notions of God is more valid than believing the revelations concerning Him.

    The Devil is cunning and subtle.
     
  17. percho

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    I have a question.

    Paul was going to Damascus to persecute Christians.

    Was it Paul's idea, to begin to believe that Jesus was the Christ, raised from the dead, the Son of God or was it Jesus's idea, that Paul would begin to believe that he Jesus, was the Christ, raised from the dead, the Son of God?

    Did the belief of Paul, come from Paul or did Jesus, choose Paul and translate him from being ignorant in unbelief unto belief?

    1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: (Right up until the moment Jesus struck him down, blind) but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
     
  18. Crabtownboy

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    Then the question becomes, which meaning is more to the truth of the Greek. The Greek word meaning has not changed, but the English meaning has changed. So, should we use a different English word? If not, have we lost meaning.

     
  19. DHK

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    Yes, of course. Where English meanings have changed meanings then old English words need to be updated. That is, in part, why some like more modern translations rather than the KJV which is 400 years old and uses some fairly archaic words which do not have the same meaning today as they did then.
    Some of the words in common usage today don't have the same meaning when I was growing up. Our language is constantly changing.
     
  20. Van

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    Koine Greek Prepositions have literal meaning, like into, in, through, out of, etc. But sometimes the range of meanings is quite large, so beyond location and direction and sequence, we find meanings such as "on the basis of" and so forth.
     

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