The World

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Mar 31, 2006.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Free willers insist that "world means world means world". And they quote verses with the word "world" to "prove" that salvation is available to every person. The problem is that they quote verses that do not qualify what "world" means. They simply assign meaning to it that fits their views.

    To be fair, Calvinists can do the same thing, because those particular verses do not qualify what "world" means. It can mean many things. It can mean every person, ever. It can mean every nation. It can mean Jews and Gentiles alike. It can mean "I am not excluding any particular geographical slice of the world, although I don't necessarily mean every person".

    Fortunately, we do have other scriptures that qualify the word "world" in ways that cannot be redefined to mean what people want the word to mean. Here is an example. This example contains both -- qualified terms and unqualified terms. So you could conceivably remove a verse here and there and redefine world to whatever you want it to mean. But in the context of the whole passage, it is clear that "world" does NOT mean every person. In some cases, it even means "specifically those people who hate God and do not belong to Jesus". Yet it is still the word "world" even though it means exclusively only those who are NOT chosen.

    I have emphasized those passages and areas that not only use the word "world" but also those that give the entire passage the proper context. I have also emphasized words that demonstrate that this passage cannot possibly refer only to the Jews or only to the Gentiles.


    As you can see, "world" means many different things in this chapter alone, depending on the context. Yet the overall message is clear. The world [in general] is condemned. But God has given some people to Jesus out of the world. They will remain in the world for God's purpose. But they do not belong to the world.

    Jesus wants the world to know Him, but He immediately follows that with the qualification, they also, whom you have given me. So when He says the message is to go out into the world, the purpose is to gather those whom God has given Him. Not to gather every person.

    I don't expect this to change the mind of any free willer, but I do hope this demonstrates that you can't just pick a verse with the word "world" in it, assign it the meaning you want it to have, and then pretend the rest of scripture doesn't exist. This principle applies to both Calvinists and free willers. Unfortunately for the free willers, the context above harmonizes with Calvinism, not free will.
     
  2. BroShane

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    And who were the "some people" Jesus was talking about? A careful reading will show that in verses 1-19 Christ is praying for the disciples (with hte exception of Judas). The focus of Christ's prayer changes in verse 20:

    John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

    The "those whom thou hast given me" refers to the disciples. You make a leap that is not supported by the text. Christ makes the distinction between two sets of people: 1) "the men which thou gavest me out of the world" which refers to the disciples, 2) " but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" refers to those who will believe through the preaching of the disciples.

    Also note that Chirst changes His focus again to the disciples in verse 24 and it stays with them throught he end of the chapter.

    It does, indeed.

    This particular passage has nothing specifically to do with either Calvinism or free will since the two groups being spoken about are either specific to the disciples or, in a general sense, to those who believe the word of the disciples. In no way does the passage state how they will believe, either through free choice or otherwise. Scripture is in harmony with scripture, not the names and doctrines we (whichever side we take) try to place on it.

    This passage alone proves neither side of the debate, although the point about taking things in context is a good one that both sides are equally guilty of.
     
  3. npetreley

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    "They also" cannot refer to the disciples. They are in addition to the disciples. But "they also" are given to Jesus out of the world. Just as it says, "All the Father gives me WILL come to me". Not "MAY come to me if they believe, but WILL".
     
  4. BroShane

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    "They also" cannot refer to the disciples. They are in addition to the disciples. But "they also" are given to Jesus out of the world. Just as it says, "All the Father gives me WILL come to me". Not "MAY come to me if they believe, but WILL". </font>[/QUOTE]Grammatically, what you state her can not be true.

    Note verse 20:

    "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word"

    Here the focus of the prayer changes from the disciples to the "them also" (which here means other people) which will believe the disciple's word. Here the Greek is kai, which is a conjunction, and is also translated as and, even, indeed, but. This focus continues until verse 24:

    "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

    Here the focus of the prayer includes again the disciples. This is the only thing that makes sense without having to overly tax the syntax to get a meaning. The phrase "whom thou hast given me" referred to the disciples in the beginning of the prayer and there is no one else for Christ to be referring back to that are mentioned.

    In this verse the "they also" in the Greek is kakeinos, of which is made from the same conjunctive root as the other verse and is also translated as and he, he also, and they and them.

    If Christ were referring to those, as you put it, "in addition to the disciples," there would be no point in adding the "whom you have given me" as He would be saying the same thing He just said. The only reason for it to be added was to either change the object of the prayer or to draw the two objects together within the same thought.

    That is what John 6:37 says. The point here is that they will come because they are given. The verse does not say how they are given, only that those given will come.
     
  5. npetreley

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    Sigh. Look at the context.

    The passage STARTS with Jesus declaring that this applies to people OTHER than the disciples. It then tells you the way by which they come (belief). Then it tells you who these people are. "[they also -- the ones that aren't these only] whom you have given me".

    Your interpretation rips that line totally out of context and places it back on the disciples. Now THAT would be pointless and repetetive.
     
  6. Taylor42

    Taylor42
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    Wow, I never realized how passionate Calvinists were.
     
  7. BroShane

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    Sigh. I'm sorry I wasted my time explaining how English works when it's obvious you did not even take the time to read it. Your argument here has no merit, and the only way I could respond to it would be by restating what I have already said. So, for a complete and total rebuttal of your argument, see above.
     
  8. Calvibaptist

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    Taylor, just so you know, we are not passionate about Calvinism. We are passionate about the Word of God and the glory of God. If we believe the Word of God is being misinterpreted, we are passionate to try to correct that interpretation.
     
  9. Me4Him

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    Taylor, just so you know, we are not passionate about Calvinism. We are passionate about the Word of God and the glory of God. If we believe the Word of God is being misinterpreted, we are passionate to try to correct that interpretation. </font>[/QUOTE]You interpreted World, (rightly so) for the most part to means those who are not saved.

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,

    And who is the world according to your interpretation, unsaved/sinners??

    Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    And "LOVE" works no ill toward "ANYONE", but fulfils the law.

    Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the unsaved sinners,
    that he gave his only begotten Son,

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.(of unsaved sinners)

    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the (world) unsaved sinners; but that the (world) unsaved sinners through him might be saved.

    Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that "ALL" should come to repentance.

    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the "TRUTH". (Jesus)

    Predestination denies God's love/salvation is offered to the whole world of unsaved sinners as described in the scriptures.
     
  10. whatever

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    Predestination does no such thing. Please stop making accusations without proof. Of course salvation is offered to every sinner. That does not mean that their response is not already determined.
     
  11. Matrix

    Matrix
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    Then it's a pretty empty offer, no?

    M
     
  12. whatever

    whatever
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    Then it's a pretty empty offer, no?

    M
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, it is not an empty offer.
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Please don't pretend to tell me how English works. I'm an editor.

    (I usually like to say "I are an editor")
     
  14. npetreley

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    Amen. I am especially passionate about the Glory of God. I don't like to see people attempting (intentionally or unintentionally) to rob some of God's Glory by claiming they are the hinge and turning point of their own salvation.
     
  15. Me4Him

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    Amen. I am especially passionate about the Glory of God. I don't like to see people attempting (intentionally or unintentionally) to rob some of God's Glory by claiming they are the hinge and turning point of their own salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]"middle of the road'ers" are "passionate" about "correcting" both "Calvinist" and "Arminians, so there should be a lot of "Passionate" discussions. :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    We're "middle of the road" because we like to "walk the line". :D :D [​IMG]
     
  16. JackRUS

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    And how is the term "world" to be determined in this verse?:

    "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

    Please note the use of the term "whole" before you decide.

    Well there goes the third point of Calvinism out the window folks.
     
  17. BroShane

    BroShane
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    Please don't pretend to tell me how English works. I'm an editor.

    (I usually like to say "I are an editor")
    </font>[/QUOTE]Your choice of vocation has nothing to do with wheter you presented the scripture accurately or not, which you didn't, for the reasons I have already given.
     
  18. Calvibaptist

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    Every nation under heaven. Oops! The third point just flew back in the back door.

    BTW, how do you define the word "propitiation" in that same verse? Because that is where the third point of Arminianism goes out the window.
     
  19. Calvibaptist

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    Amen. I am especially passionate about the Glory of God. I don't like to see people attempting (intentionally or unintentionally) to rob some of God's Glory by claiming they are the hinge and turning point of their own salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]"middle of the road'ers" are "passionate" about "correcting" both "Calvinist" and "Arminians, so there should be a lot of "Passionate" discussions. :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    We're "middle of the road" because we like to "walk the line". :D :D [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Me4, you are anything but middle of the road. Take that as somewhat of a compliment because you know what you believe, you stick to your guns, and you use a lot of Scripture.

    But, I think, from my interaction with your posts, that you are more of an Arminian than you want to admit.

    Arminians believed:
    1) Depravity was not total.

    (Abiliity of Man)
    "No one is rejected from life nor from the means sufficient for it by an absolute antecedent decree,, so that the merit of Christ, calling, and all the gifts of the Spirit can be profitable to salvation for all, and truly are, unless they themselves by the abuse of these gifts pervert them to their own perdition; but to unbelief, to impiety, and to sins, a means and causes of damnation, no one is predestined."

    (Prevenient Grace)
    "Although according to the most free will of God the disparity of divine grace is very great, nevertheless, the Holy Spirit confers, or is ready to confer, as much grace to all men and to each man to whom the Word of God is preached as is sufficient for promoting the conversion of men in its steps. Therefore sufficient grace for faith and conversion falls to the lot not only of those whom God is said to will to save according to the decree of absolute election, but also of those whoa re not actually converted."

    2) Election is conditional (on faith) and is corporate (of believers)

    (Election based on foreknowledge of Faith)
    "The election of particular persons is decisive, out of consideration of faith in Jesus Christ and of perseverance; not, however, apart from a consideration of faith and perseverance in the true faith, as a condition prerequisite for electing."

    3) Atonement is universal

    "The price of redemption which Christ offered to God the Father is not only in itself and by itself sufficient for the redemption of the whole human race but has also been paid for all men and for every man, according to the decree, will, and the grace of God the Father; therefore no one is absolutely excluded from participation in the fruits of Christ’s death by an absolute and antecedent decree of God."

    4) The Grace of God's Calling is not truly Efficacious (It is ultimately resistable)

    "The efficacious grace by which anyone is converted is not irresistible; and though God so influences the will by the word and the internal operation of His Spirit that he both confers the strength to believe or supernatural powers, and actually causes man to believe – yet man is able of himself to despise that grace and not to believe, and therefore to perish through his own fault."

    5) Man can fall from grace (lose their salvation)

    "True believers are able to fall through their own fault into shameful and atrocious deeds, to persevere and to die in them; and therefore finally to fall and to perish."

    These are the actual responses of the Remonstrants to the charge of heresy. As you can see, you line up with 4 out of the 5 points. So the only point of Arminianism that you do not believe is that you can lose your salvation. I say you are just inconsistent. You say you are not an Arminian. But, you are hardly "middle of the road."
     
  20. npetreley

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    Duh, if you say so it must be true, despite my explanations to the contrary.
     

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