"TheLordOpened HerHeart." Was this Irresistable Grace?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by mr. messy, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. mr. messy

    mr. messy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2001
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    0
    A "primitive Baptist preacher," mentioned to me that the Lord opened her heart. See Acts 16:14 KJVA
    (14) "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

    That she did not have to believe...seemed to be his point. Apparently this Baptist preacher believed that the Lord did all of the work?
    Did I chose the right term "Irresistable Grace?" or should I used one of the other 5 points of Calvinism? Did this lady have an open heart because she was a Jewish convert previously?

    I want to be fair to both sides of the debate. Thanks, Mr. Messy
     
  2. mr. messy

    mr. messy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2001
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    0
    Additional Info. I am a layman. I am not an expert. Thanks, Mr. Messy.
     
  3. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    That "she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul" means that she believed those things that Paul said, but only after God enabled her to. Yes, that's Irresistible Grace.
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Whatever;
    Is there a difference between opening and breaking in? If God's grace is irresistible why do so many resist?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    you have overlooked the phrase "which worshipped God" Which says that She was already a believer before Paul came and spoke, which, She heard and obeyed. Her heart was open to hearing the word of God and it is not clear when this "opening" occured. But it did not happen by hearing Paul's words, it Happened before hearing Paul's words, as stated by the phrase "which worshipped God" I paraphrase; "The woman known as Lydia, a seller of purple in the city of Thyatira who worshipped God, whose heart the lord opened, heard what Paul had to say and attended to doing that which was spoken."
     
  6. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is there a difference between opening and breaking in? If God's grace is irresistible why do so many resist?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinism does not hold that all of God's grace is irresistible. Only His saving grace, which He only bestows on those who believe as a result, is irresistible.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Whatever;
    If someone was trying to convince you of something and they kept changing there story would you believe them?
    I don't intend this to ridcule but, Calvinist say same this same sort of stuff about all of the pedals
    Total is not the sum.
    Unconditional isn't completely unconditional
    Irresistible isn't completely irresistible.
    Limited isn't limited.
    Perseverance is really God's work as if He has to work at what ever He chooses to do. I mean do you really think He has to keep at it inorder for us all to be saved.

    Maybe there isn't a Calvinist in the world who has ever thought about this but you guy's never seem to say what you really mean.

    What bothers me most is you tend to do the same with God's word.
    All doesn't mean all.
    Whosoever doesn't mean just anyone.
    World doesn't mean the whole ball of wax. Then when it's God's will that all come to Him this isn't so either.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is there a difference between opening and breaking in? If God's grace is irresistible why do so many resist?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinism does not hold that all of God's grace is irresistible. Only His saving grace, which He only bestows on those who believe as a result, is irresistible.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Does God take his "Saving Grace" away AFTER one has come to believe? I personally know dozens of people who believed, who say they were active in the church, and say they used to believe in Jesus, but do not now believe in Jesus. Many of them say they used agree with the 5-points of Calvinism, yet they are not now believers, even though they remain under the Grace of GOD!

    What happened to God's irrestible Grace in them? Who Plucked them from the Hand of God?

    "Irresistable Grace" is a CROCK! It doesn't do what you say it does! Those who were strong believers, but are not now strong believers and in truth reject God are still under God's grace, else the penalty of their sins would be carried out against them. The only reason why they still live is because of God's grace. They are under God's grace just like all of God's creation is under God's grace.

    "Irresistable Grace"? Hogwash!
     
  9. Kiffen

    Kiffen
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    0
    Once again you have not done your homework on what Calvinism believes. Calvinist theology actually says those who do not persevere in the Faith until the end were never believers but just professors only.

    1833 New Hampshire Confession of Faith

    We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end; that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors;that a special Providence watches over their welfare; and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.



    Calvinism on the other hand believes all believers will ultimately persevere, though they may backslide temporarily but the Holy Spirit will not allow them to completely fall away but bring them back.

    Second London Baptist Confession 1689

    And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein,[9]whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to have their graces and comforts impaired,[11] have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,[12] hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgements upon themselves,[13] yet shall they
    renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.[14]


    9. Matt. 26:70, 72, 74
    10. Isa. 64:5, 9; Eph. 4:30
    11. Psa. 51:10, 12
    12. Psa. 32:3-4
    13. II Sam. 12:14
    14. Luke 22:32, 61-62




    If you are going to attack Calvinism it would do you good to study what Calvinism believes before building your straw man and attacking it.
     
  10. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    If someone was trying to convince you of something and they kept changing there story would you believe them?
    I don't intend this to ridcule but, Calvinist say same this same sort of stuff about all of the pedals
    Total is not the sum.
    Unconditional isn't completely unconditional
    Irresistible isn't completely irresistible.
    Limited isn't limited.
    Perseverance is really God's work as if He has to work at what ever He chooses to do. I mean do you really think He has to keep at it inorder for us all to be saved.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I think you're not listening. Total is the sum - even the "good" things that an unbeliever does are sinful. Unconditional is unconditional - God didn't elect any person based on any condition in that person. Irresistible is completely irresistible - but not all grace is irresistible. (Please point me to any Calvinist who ever said that all of God's grace is irresistible.) Limited is limited - to only those whom the Lord our God shall call. Perseverance is God's work, and we must persevere. If you don't think that it is appropriate to say that God works then please reread the Genesis account of creation.

    All does mean all - the question is, all of what? It is a fair question. Whosoever means anyone who will. The question is, will anyone? It is a fair question. World may mean every single person, or it may mean something different.

    We both agree that not everyone comes to God. The question we are seeking to answer is, how should we explain the fact that sovereign God doesn't get what He wants? How do you answer that question?
     
  11. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    The apostles were not to preach the gospel until they had been filled with the Spirit that would empower them. When Peter got up to preach at Pentecost, this is what happened:

    " Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

    The power of the Spirit in believers speaks to the spirits of men and convicts the hearts of the people of the world. When someone rejects this conviction their heart is hardened. In other words, they choose to deceive themselves. Happens all the time. Same reason born again believers sin. Others humble themselvs to truth.

    Being cut to the heart is the same thing that happened to Lydia. God was not up there in heaven waiving a magic regeneration wand. It was the Spirit of God in Paul that opened her heart to Paul's message. That is all that is meant by the passage.

    " For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling; and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power." - Paul, 1 Corinthians 2:4.
     
  12. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who in the world ever said anything about a magic regeneration wand? That's just silly.
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    ILUVLIGHT.

    How many times do we have to say the same thing? Not that I mind. I love the doctrines; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.
    There is resistance to overcome but He has the keys and has no need to break in.
    But if He wanted to break in what would you do about it?

    johnp.
     
  14. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    How many times do we have to say the same thing? Not that I mind. I love the doctrines; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.
    There is resistance to overcome but He has the keys and has no need to break in.
    But if He wanted to break in what would you do about it?

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]johnp,

    No good can come from the flesh. All that comes from the flesh is evil. All good, ALL good, comes from the Father of heavenly lights.

    The mind of the flesh is a person who chooses to follow self because flesh is what we are. But every man on earth has a spirit from God in him, God the father of the spirits of all flesh. In this way, any man can do good.

    The PROBLEM with man is that he cannot himself take credit for that any good thing that he might do because man is flesh which cannot originate anything good and any good that any man does comes from that spirit within him and that spirit within him is not him but spirit from God who gave it and to whom it will return when he dies. Hence when ANY man does good he cannot boast for the goodness did not originate with him because he is by nature flesh because that is what a human is. Dust you are. The dust is corrupted and can originate no good thing.

    A true CHRISTIAN is not simply someone who can choose good. ANY man can choose to do good. Any man is a soul who may choose to follow the flesh that he is, or the spirit within him that he is not, when it comes time to make any given decision. A Christian is someone who goes even further and abandons his old humanity of flesh completely to become a new nature of spirit and to take his old humanity of the flesh and employ it to servanthood of loving our neighbor unto death. Hence, a CHRISTIAN is someone who has this goodness applicable to himself because he has become the nature of spirit in conversion, the new humanity, insofar as he functions according to that nature.
     
  15. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Whatever;

    Grace is favor and grace is given for a reason that reason is faith "Eph2:8 for we are saved by grace through faith"
    This is saying that grace comes as a result of faith. We are saved by grace because we have faith in Jesus Christ. Grace is not unconditional and neither is regeneration.

    If election is unconditional then it would have to be random. If it's random then our Salvation is left to chance. Total depravity doesn't exist except in the Calvinism doctrine. It doesn't exist in scripture.
    Limiting the atonement is a little like limiting infinity which is limitless.
    If there is no adjective then it is all inclusive
    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    The word "men" isn't there in the original manuscript but it is obvious that "ALL" is what is meant.
    I don't think so it means "anyone"
    I did
    Just where is it used to mean anything other than everyone?
    God get's exactly what He wants and what He wanted was for man to Love Him. Man cannot Love God with out a choice. Love only works when it is free to choose. Forced Love as in irresistible grace isn't Love at all but Rape. Your Irresistible Grace that isn't even mentioned in scripture because it doesn't exist. Is the rape of man as long as it is forced salvation.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi JohnP;
    So you accept the fact that God's grace is resistible. That's great, you see your finally starting to see truth.
    But then just when I get my hopes up for you!
    Maybe it's that total depravity thing that keeps you from the truth :D
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  17. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben

    Well I have never said otherwise did I? What is happening, you becoming a Calvinist?
    Didn't last long did it before you protected your selfrighteousness.
    Wow! Like a see saw back to Calvinism.
    I getting sick. What are you talking about?

    johnp.
     
  18. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    ILUVLIGHT.

    Did Jesus draw Himself. If He did not then 'all' is not 'all' is it in the way you mean? Answer this so I know you have read it this time.
    Your masterful penmanship has undone me.

    johnp.
     
  19. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    If God wants every single person to love Him and if not every single person loves Him then God doesn't get what He wants.

    Once again you show that you do not understand what we are talking about. No one is ever saved unwillingly. No one is saved who doesn't want to be saved. What irresistible grace does is to make us want to love God, and then we do so willingly. I'm glad you chose to love God - so did I. The next question is, why did you choose to love God? Why are you among the "whosoever will" instead of the "whosoever won't"?
     
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    The fact stands, people come to believe in God, in Jesus, in salvation etc, and then they stop believing. They have "fallen away from the faith", they have "taken their hand from the plow", they have diverged "from the path of Salvation". They were believers now they are not! AND, it can happen to any of us! It is a totally human thing to believe and continue to do so.

    It is true that God does not change and the things of God do not change, but man does change! There is entirely too much evidence all around us for us to ignore that Fact!

    That is why we, all who hear and receive the word of God, are warned in the scriptures to Persevere to the end, to continue believing in God no matter what comes our way! It is easy to come to faith in God, in Jesus, and it is easy to stop having faith in God, in Jesus.

    Until you pass from death (natural) unto life everlasting (spiritual), there is always the possibility that you can lose your faith! Don't let it happen to you! Keep the faith, baby!
     

Share This Page

Loading...