These signs will follow them who believe

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by spirit1st, Sep 2, 2005.

  1. spirit1st

    spirit1st
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    Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    These things are real and will be in every child born of GODS life,or at least should be!?

    The LORD does not say maybe!
     
  2. StefanM

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    Should I post a text-critical response?

    Nah. I'll not worry with it.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Rev 22:18 (KJV1611 Edition):

    For I testifie vnto euery man that heareth the wordes of the prophesie of this booke, If any man shal adde vnto these things, God shall adde vnto him the plagues, that are written in this booke.

    Spirit1st: "These things are real and will be in every child born of GODS life,or at least should be!?"

    You add to this scripture :( when you make it read:

    Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow EACH OF
    them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
    they shall speak with new tongues;
    Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents;
    and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
    they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    Works for me. This is the Great Comission for
    Carismatics ;)
     
  5. spirit1st

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    The LIVING WORD NEVER FAILS.WE DO! Not every sees the things that they should!But it does not take from our place at HIS table.But we should accept all things by FAITh and for HIS GLORY AND HONOR.We should be seeking HIS PERFECT WILL and ALL SPIRITUAL THINGS HE HAS ALREADY DELIVERED INTO OUR HANDS.They are fully with in us,If we have the HOLY SPIRIT!
     
  6. yeshua4me2

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    i love snake handlers, and yes the words in greek do include purposefully picking up serpants to demonstarate faith. i would love to see bob roth pick up a black mamba, and let it bite him.
     
  7. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    The scripture says "And these signs shall follow them that believe;".

    Doesn't that mean all that believe?? :eek: :rolleyes: as in EVERYBODY???

    Duh

    Tam
     
  8. ascund

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    Greetings

    Works for me. This is the Great Comission for
    Carismatics ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I think StefanM was wondering whether he should get into the fact that the last verses of Mark are a spurious ending created by human ingenuity in the 3rd century.

    There is no Greek manuscript evidence with this ending before the 3rd century. In fact, when you look at other language groups, Georgian, Syriac, Latin, etc. one finds four different endings for Mark. [Aland, The Greek NT, 2nd ed. (New York: UBS, 1966, 1968), 196-98.]

    Which is right?
    Probably none of them.

    Lloyd
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    I think of you are going to believe it belongs
    in the scriptue, that you aught to figure out
    what it says.

    BTW, unless you are a Senior Citizen,
    that will be "Duh, Sir" to you, Beloved
    Sister in Christ.

    As for intentionally handling Snakes
    or drinking poison, I'll use the Method Jesus
    used when He said to the Serpent/Devil:

    Mat 4:7 ;(KJV1611 Edition):
    Iesus said vnto him, It is written againe,
    Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
     
  10. D28guy

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    The scripture says that these things will follow those who are believers in Jesus Christ.

    But other scriptures make clear that we are not all gifted in the same way. Some are an eye, some and ear, etc.

    What these scriptures...and so many others...make abundantly clear is that cessationists are dead wrong. The sign gifts have never ceased on earth and they never will.

    (I recently read a book who title was something like "2000 years of charismatic christianity")

    These scriptures do not prove that every individual christian will speak in tongues, cast our devils, etc.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother D28guy -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  12. StefanM

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    Works for me. This is the Great Comission for
    Carismatics ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I think StefanM was wondering whether he should get into the fact that the last verses of Mark are a spurious ending created by human ingenuity in the 3rd century.

    There is no Greek manuscript evidence with this ending before the 3rd century. In fact, when you look at other language groups, Georgian, Syriac, Latin, etc. one finds four different endings for Mark. [Aland, The Greek NT, 2nd ed. (New York: UBS, 1966, 1968), 196-98.]

    Which is right?
    Probably none of them.

    Lloyd
    </font>[/QUOTE]One alternative reading:

    Instead of 9-20, insert this:

    "And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation."
    [NASB, Updated]
    ----------


    It is my personal conviction that either:

    1. The original Gospel of Mark ended with v. 8.

    or

    2. The original ending of Mark no longer exists.
     
  13. ascund

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    Hey StephaM

    Yes indeed! Your earlier post hinted that you had already done such a study. I came across it through an investigation of the Greek Manuscripts and noted the oddity.

    I hold to your #2: that the original ending of Mark no longer exists. Apparently, the last sheaf of papyrus containing those verses ran into some trouble. Perhaps wind, an inadvertent accident, a young child playing with it, who knows?

    I wish you would post more frequently.
    Lloyd
     
  14. ascund

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    Hey Ed

    Scripture verifies Scripture - right?!

    Where is there another verse that teaches snake handling or drinking poison?

    Only the spurious additions to Mark's lost ending contains such dross. Best to build theology on verifiable stuff.

    Lloyd
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother ascund - Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  16. StefanM

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    An interesting comparison lies in Mt. 28 and Mk. 16.

    You'll see that through the beginning of v. 8 in both chapters the verses are very similar (which is to be expected, given that Matthew most likely borrowed from Mark). After v. 8, there is significant divergence. Why would Matthew use an entirely different source after v. 8 if he borrowed so heavily for the beginning of his resurrection account? Perhaps the ending of Matthew reflects a no longer extant ending of Mark, or perhaps Mark ended in verse 8 and Matthew had to use a different source to finish his gospel. Either is viable.

    Of course you have the problem of ending the work in v. 8 with "gar," which lends creedence to #2 as listed above, but Mark's Greek isn't polished. It might be the ending, but it might not be.

    Luke obviously drew on a different source, so his account doesn't apply to the discussion.
     
  17. ascund

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    Hey StefanM

    I like paying attention to the verbs in Mt. 28. The main verb is "make disciples" as an aorist. Every other verb of interest is a participle: "baptizing" and "teaching."

    All participles are totally dependent upon the main verb.

    Conclusion: make disciples comes first (justification), baptizing and teaching comes next (sanctification).

    The height of theological confusion comes from confusing sanctification with justification. Any blending of the two is heresy.

    Good remarks you have been making!
    Lloyd
     
  18. StefanM

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    Of course, if we REALLY want to ruffle some feathers, we mention that the "go" is actually a participle, too ;) .
     
  19. DHK

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    Mark 16:17-20 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

    The passage has been preserved in the Received Text all these centuries. There is a very good case that it is not simply a spurious text, but an inspired part of the Word of God that belongs in the Bible as it is.
    To say that isn't at this point and time is a cop-out. Deal with the text with the assumption that it is our Bible (as it is), until proven without doubt that it isn't.

    Mark 16:19-20 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

    It is evident from the context of the passage that the signs mentioned were confined to the first century Christians. There is much more evidence given elsewhere in the epistles that these signs have ceased, and did cease by the end of the first century when there was no more need for them to continue.
    There was a serpent that wrapped itself on Paul's arm. He shook it off into the fire with no harm to himself. The natives of the island were amazed. This is one part of that prophecy fulfilled. God was not commanding people to handle snakes (as is done in some churches to this day). That is ridiculously absurd, and a complete distortion of Scripture. If such Scripture were to be interpreted that way, why don't the same people down some HCL and tempt the Lord that way. We all know the answer. Hydrochloric Acid is a deadly poison, which taken internally can kill you. The Charismatic movement does not do justice when applying proper rules of hermeneutics to this passage, often taking it out of its context, and twisting the verses to mean something other than that which they were intended. God does not intend for you to drink poison; nor does he intend for you to handle snakes.
    DHK
     
  20. mman

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    DHK,

    I agree with you, but I'm sure that is of no comfort to you.

    I would like to add some to what you said. Backing up a couple of more verses in Mark 16, to verse 14, Mark states, "Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe..."

    Jesus had just rebuked the eleven apostles for their lack of faith and refusal to believe. He then gives them a commission and tells them the signs that would "accompany those who believe:...".

    These are certainly the signs that followed the apostles, whom he had to rebuke, but now believed.
     

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