"This is my flesh"

And then we have people who claim to be a new creation in Christ but refuse to submit themselves to lab tests to prove it. Hypocracy abounds! Don't you love people who believe their own rules of proof do not apply to themselves?

 

Good points !

Some people who claim Transubstantiation may get angry if we don't bring the fertilizer to Him, the True Vine !

 

"New Creation in Christ" refers to a spiritual change in the heart, not an actual change in the substance of our bodies, so that analogy doesn't fit. Bread and Wine do not have hearts that can be changes spiritually.

 

Could you explain?

Catholics definitely believe in transubstantiation and the presence of Jesus Christ. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist the bread and wine are turned into the Body and Blood of Chirst.

This concept is difficult for most Baptists to understand because a "leap of faith" in the teaching of Jesus Christ is required.

 

The New Birth is NOT a claim of the form "People turn into ELEPHANTS at the New Birth EVEN though they still APPEAR as humans".

Hopefully that part is "clear".

And yet the wild claims of the RCC amount to idol worship when we consider that the nonRC doctrinal view is correct.

Indeed if they simply do this "IN REMEMBERANCE" of the sacrifice of Christ INSTEAD of as the CONTINUED sacrifice - then for Centuries the RCC has duped mankind to worship A PIECE OF BREAD as God” </font>[/QUOTE]

 

That's right!

The people who claim that the Bread is changed to the Flesh and Wine to Blood physically and then refuse the testing by Lab cowardly, saying that our belief cannot be tested at the Laboratory are frankly admitting that what they claim and insist are only the matter of faith without the actual and physical change of the sunbstances , and admitting that Transubstantiation is wrong!

They themselves know well that they are telling lies !
They are quite frank at least in that impasse. </font>[/QUOTE]This may be a difficult analogy to follow but give it a try.

Why do you believe the teachings of the Bible and the exitence of Jesus Christ? You weren't there to witness any of it. How do you know any of it true? Can you prove it?

 

Claudia didn't make good points neither did Bob they both presumed LS was talking about the RC. I don't think he was. Note: RCC call their view of communion "Transubstantiation" we're discussing Real Presence. Ok. Got it. Or should I say it more s-l-o-w-l-y.

 

Nate, I didn't read thru your article, but at a glimpse I think you need a lot of re-inforcement by acquiring the assistance from Holy Spirit

 

I agree that apostolic tradition from the time of Christ has affirmed the Real Presence of Christ.

In our modernist culture, spiritual things are often not considered real but I consider that a false statement. I don't know if I would affirm the doctrine of the Real Presence, I do know that what happens at communion is a spiritually real and intimate encounter with the presence of my Lord through the elements of the eucharist/communion/Lord's supper.

Great stuff nate.

 

SOURCE: THE ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE
John 6:53-58
the Jesus said to them "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you."
"Whoever eats My flesh and drink My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
"For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."
"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him."
"As the lining Father sent Me, and I live becouse of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live becouse of Me."
"This is the bread wich came down from heavan - not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
6:53 Christ's body was crucified and His blood shed on the Cross. We receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice by comming to Him in faith(.v35), and by communion with Him: we eat His flesh and drink His blood. These words refer directly to the Eurcharist, the mystery of Christ our life, we must partake of His eucharistic flesh and blood. St. John Chrysostom(Homily 47:7) teaches we must not understand the sacrament carnally, that is, according to the laws of physical nature, but spiritually (v.63), perceiving a true but mystical presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
6:54,55 St. Hilary of Poitier writes, "What we say concerning the reality of Christ's nature within us would be foolish and impious were we not tought by His very words...There is no room left for doubt about the reality of His flesh and blood, becouse we have both the witness of His words and our own faith. Thus, when we eat and drink these elemonts we are in Christ and Christ is in us" (On the Trinity, Book VIII, 14).
This reality, however, is a profound mystery of faith and drace. Orthodox theology teaches that in the Eucharist we partake not simply of the physical/material, but of the deified and glorified Body and Blood of Christ wich gives resurrection life.

 

Could you explain?

Catholics definitely believe in transubstantiation and the presence of Jesus Christ. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist the bread and wine are turned into the Body and Blood of Chirst.

This concept is difficult for most Baptists to understand because a "leap of faith" in the teaching of Jesus Christ is required. </font>[/QUOTE]It requires more than a leap of faith. It requires for the Scriptures to be broken.

Commands to not consume blood can be found in Gen. 9:4; Lev. 7:26-27; 17:10,12-14; 19:26; Deut. 12:15-16,23; 1 Sam. 14:32-34; Ezek. 32:25; and yes, this law still holds in the time after Christ’s death: Acts 15:28-29.

And His body is not to see corruption (Ps. 16:10), and that includes any ride through the digestive tract, not to mention its inevitable final journey to the sewage treatment plant or septic tank via your toilet.

 

Even the RCC admits that it's view of "confecting God" and "continual sacrifice" in direct contradiction to the ONCE FOR ALL time sacrifice of Christ in Heb 10 that "puts a STOP to ALL sacrifice" -- is in fact idol worship IF its claims to confect God are in error.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Catholic Encyclopedia says:

Finally, Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in this , that only the substance is converted into another — the accidents remaining the same — just as would be the case if wood were miraculously converted into iron, the substance of the iron remaining hidden under the external appearance of the wood

Catholic don't believe that the substances are transformed to another completely, but the accidents remain the same!