This is the Third day

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
    21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


    I have been accused of ignoring part of this text by GE. However, it is GE that not only ignores what it says but perverts what it says.


    Here are some facts.

    1. "since" in verse 21 represents the Greek preposition "apo" NOT "ek". GE's position requires the use of "ek" NOT "apo." Why? Because "ek" would include the day of crucifixion in his counting but "apo" excludes it. Ek originates within whereas apo originates outside. Take a look at the basic meaning of these prepositions in regard to the circle in Mantey's Grammar.

    2. "these things were done" does not refer to his burial but to those things listed in verse 20 "rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him." Luke is not concerned with when Christ was buried in this count but with Christ's condemnation and death.

    3. The first day of the week (Sunday) "IS" the third day "since" (apo - away from) the crucifixion day (Thursday 6pm to 6pm or our Wednesday 6pm to our thursday 6 pm) when they condemned and crucified him. Hence, Luke begins his count with the day "since" or that follows the day of crucifixion - not with Thursday but friday or Jewish time (thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm) as the first day "since" the condemnation, thus Saturday the second day "since" the crucifixion day and thus Sunday which "IS" the third day "since" the crucifixion day.

    If Luke had used "ek" ("out of") then it would necessarily included the crucifixion day in his counting but he did not. He used "apo" which takes us outside the day of crucifixion and makes the count begin with the day following the crucifixion day.

    NOW LUKE KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BASIC MEANING OF APO AND EK
     
  2. Dr. Walter

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    "Ek" = OUT of but "apo" is "AWAY from"

    Ek necessarily begins WITHIN something and then moves away from it. In this case, "ek" would begin WITHIN is THE DAY that the rulers condemned and crucified Christ. This is the preposition Luke would have used IF GE's position were correct BUT HE DID NOT.

    "Apo" = AWAY from

    Apo necessarily begins OUTSIDE something and then moves away from it. In this case "apo" would begin OUTSIDE and AWAY from THE DAY the rulers condemned and crucified Chrsit. This is the preposition Luke used which condemns GE's counting method.

    Hence, SUNDAY (6pm Saturday evening to 6 pm Sunday evening) or the first day of the week "IS the THIRD day SINCE ("apo")" or AWAY FROM the condemnation and crucifixion day (Wednesday 6 pm to Thursday 6pm).

    So now with the proper understanding of the language used by Luke let us count:

    CONDEMNATION/CRUCIFIXION day - Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm

    1. The first day "since" (apo) from it would be Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm
    2. The second day "since" (apo) from it would be Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm
    3. Sunday "IS THE THIRD DAY SINCE" the condemnation/crucifixion or Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6pm


    On the other hand GE attempts to make "apo" into "ek" and forces the text to read thus:

    1. First day since (ek) OUT FROM the condemnation/crucifixion - Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm

    2. Second day since (ek) OUT FROM the condemnation/crucifixion - Thursday 6pm to Friday 6pm

    3. Third day since (ek) OUT FROM the condemnation/crucifixion - Friday 6pm to Saturday 6 pm

    4. Fourth day since (ek) OUT FROM the condemnation/crucifixion - Saturday 6pm to Sunday 6 pm.


    However, the text does not read "ek" but "apo" and therefore GE's counting method is WRONG! Apo EXLUDES the day of condemnation/crucifixion from Luke's count.

    Now, GE attempts to counter this by claiming that it would have to INCLUDE it since Christ was buried on the condemnation/crucifixion day. However, Luke was not counting the days Christ was in the grave but counting the days since the rulers did those things specified by Luke in verse 20. The rulers did not bury Christ! The rulers condemned and crucified Christ. If Luke were considering the time "since" Christ was buried he would have used "ek" as that would include the condemnation/crucifixion/burial day. However, Luke was not counting the days Christ was in the grave but counting the days AWAY FROM (apo) the condemnation/crucifixion day. Luke did not say "This IS the third day Christ has been in the tomb" BUT "This is the third day since" they had done the things to Christ as described in verse 20.

    20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

    The Chief Priests and our rulers did not bury Christ and so Luke is not speaking to the time since he was buried but the time since the Cheif Preists and rulers did what they did between 6pm Wednesday to 6pm Thursday.
     
    #2 Dr. Walter, Jul 29, 2011
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  3. Dr. Walter

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    20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.



    Now GE's only possible response is:

    1. Ignore the evidence provided by Luke in Luke 24:20-21 and/or

    2. Continue to interpret "since" by the meaning of a preposition Luke did not use (he did not use "ek").

    3. Argue that since Christ was "buried" on the day of condemnation/crucifixion then "apo" translated "since" must be interpreted to include that day making Sunday the FOURTH day "since".

    However, Luke did not use "ek" but used "apo" and thus excluded the day of condemnation from his count.

    However, Luke was not counting the days Christ was in the tomb but counting the days "FROM" (since) the day he was condemned and crucified. Luke was not speaking about what His disciples did - they buried him - BUT what the rulers and chief Priests did (v. 20).

    However, Luke did not say that Sunday/first day of the week "IS the FOURTH DAY" since he was buried but that it "IS the THIRD DAY" from the condemnation/crucifixion day.

    Sunday "IS" the "THIRD DAY" away from the day of crucifixion and Christ was to rise on the "THIRD DAY" out from the day of burial or three days and three nights:

    Buried on thursday between 3pm to 6pm - DAY ONE
    In the Grave thursday 6pm to Friday 6 am - NIGHT ONE
    In the Grave Friday 6am to Friday 6pm - DAY TWO
    In the Grave Friday 6pm to Saturday 6am - NIGHT TWO
    In the Grave Saturday 6am to Saturday 6pm - DAY THREE
    In the Grave Saturday 6pm to Sunday 3am - NIGHT THREE

    THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS

    If you take Christ out of the Grave on Saturday afternoon, he could only have been in the grave three days and TWO nights

    If you put Christ in the grave Wednesday prior to 6pm then you have Christ in the grave more than 72 hours and FOUR NIGHTS and THREE DAYS and a part of another day.

    Wednesday before 6pm - PART OF DAY
    Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6am - NIGHT ONE
    Thursday 6am to Thursday 6pm - FIRST FULL DAY TWO
    Thursday 6pm to Friday 6am - NIGHT TWO
    Friday 6am to Friday 6pm - SECOND FULL DAY THREE
    Friday 6pm to Satuday 6am - NIGHT THREE
    Saturday 6am to Saturday 6pm - THIRD FULL DAY FOUR
    Saturday 6m. to Sunday 6am - NIGHT FOUR

    Neither GE's position or ITIUT's position will work.

     
  4. ituttut

    ituttut
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    ITUTTUT'S UNDERSTANDing IS PERFECT

    Wednesday fits exactly, removing contradictions. The women are needed to help solve this problem.
     
  5. percho

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    Dr Walter maybe the problem is in the translations. I have found one I like. I am a dead Wed to Sat guy. Would you like to guess the translation, if not just say no and I will post it. I had never heard of it before today. I might add Young's is also close because of one word he has but others do not.

    I'm betting you know of this translation and it may not be an actual translation.
     
  6. Dr. Walter

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    I don't need any translation. I can read the Greek text and the Greek preposition used by Luke is "apo" not "ek."
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    There is no possible way that Sunday can be the "third day" SINCE (apo) from the day of crucifixion IF it occurred on Wednesday UNLESS you are speaking of Jewish time and then it would be our or Roman time Wednesday evening between 6pm and Thursday 6pm.

    The ONLY time possible is on our Thursday between 9am to 4pm. Neither can GE's position have any possibility of being correct as his postion cannot even involve any more than TWO nights (Thursday 6pm to Friday 6am and Friday 6pm to Saturday 6am).

    Neither one of your theories are possible according to Luke's computation.
     
  8. percho

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    Being you read Greek and I know no Greek let me ask. Is there any implication in the Greek that the last day that had passed was the third day since: apo

    I ask this because in Young's Literal uses the word passing and the following is the one I said I discovered but had never heard of before last night.

    Bible in Basic English
    Luke 24:21 But we were hoping that he would be the Saviour of Israel. In addition to all this he has now let three days go by from the time when these things took place;

    Why do the have a passing or gone by tone to them?
     
  9. Dr. Walter

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    The translation of "apo" in Bible in Basic English is not necessarily wrong "go by from" unless you interpret as you have in the sense of something moving or passing a stationary object. The Greek language has a term for something passing by a stationary object (parerchomai).

    There is no way that apo can be interpreted to mean time "passed by" the event being described as something in motion but rather this is a measurement of time that has passed by from/since the exterior or conclusion of the event being described. Hence the passing is a measurement from the exterior of the specified event (condemnation and crucifixion of Christ) so that "THIS IS THE THIRD DAY" in the movement of time from the exterior conclusion of the day of that event.
     
    #9 Dr. Walter, Aug 1, 2011
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  10. ituttut

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    Hasn't your argument been half-day counting? Also you have a coming forth on Sunday just shortly before noon, or in the afternoon. Thursday is not possible.
     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    I have no idea what you are talking about. I have counted days as they are counted in Genesis one - the normal Jewish method. In the normal Jewish method there is two parts to the day - evening and morning. That is exactly how I have counted these days.

    He arose in the "evening" part of Sunday - EVENING THREE
    He was in the grave on the "morning" part of Saturday - MORING THREE
    He was in the grave on the "evening" part of Saturday - EVENING TWO
    He was in the grave on the "morning" part of Friday - MORNING TWO
    He was in the grave on the "evening" part of Friday - EVENING ONE
    He was in the grave on the "morning" part of Thursday - MORNING ONE.

    Nowhere in scripture does it ever demand that Jews counted a day in no other terms than a full 24 hours. For example Adam was created on the sixth day but that does not mean he existed all 24 hours of that day.
     
    #11 Dr. Walter, Aug 1, 2011
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  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    So what? You think nobody but Dr Walter knew it?

    It helps nothing you make an issue of a non-issue to prove your non-issue an issue. It helps nothing to solve a problem by beating around the bush.

     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING!

    That's what's he's been say'n!

    Hitting a punch bag to shreds won't win anybody the belt!!

    But you do far worse, Dr Walter; you make a video of you punching that bag, then sit down in your sofa and tell yourself, let's watch how silly GE acts.



     
    #13 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Aug 1, 2011
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  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    Aah, Ituttut, on the tut!!!

    You HAVE seen some light!

    Thank God!

    The problem in fact IS Dr Walter puts together by "half-day counting" PARTS of SEPARATE DAYS that in fact do form a 24 hour period each PAIR, BUT NOT _THE_ or any "DAY" (consisting of first night then day) THAT IS INVOLVED AND CONCERNED in Scriptures THAT DEAL WITH _THE_ "three days" on "the third day" -OF WHICH - "Christ rose from the dead"!

    This is Dr Walter's BASIC fallacy, that he IDENTIFIES the simply COUNTED 'days' involved in Luke 24:21 "SINCE" the Crucifixion, with _THE_ "three days" MEANT, in the Prophecies and Promises and Law --- _THE_ "three days" of the PASSOVER of Yahweh, the 14th, 15th and 16th days of the First Month the Month-of-Passover. Which "three days" : "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" were to be "observed", "remembered", "kept", "kept holy", "obeyed", each, IN ITS OWN RIGHT AND REALITY of "three days and three nights" _OF_ THESE and NO other, days.

    How can I make it clearer, "THREE DAYS THICK DARKNESS" OF "THE PLAGUE" that "was upon Him", the "three days" of the last two plagues in Egypt and of the exodus, ONCE FOR ALL FULFILLED IN AND BY AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST on the 14th, 15th and 16th days of Passover Month, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" IN EVERY RESPECT, especially in respect of the GOD-GIVEN and therefore eschatological imperative WHOLENESS AND FULLNESS OF EACH AND OF ALL THREE DAYS TOGETHER.

    Goodness, do I speak to infidels or infants or what?!

    The REAL 'days' of the Word of God; not just three days since the Crucifixion on Abib 14, but THE "three days"

    OF WHICH ABIB 14 WAS, QUOTE: "THE VERY FIRST DAY";

    OF WHICH Abib 15 was, QUOTE: "the first day ye shall eat no leavened bread ... That Day "

    OF WHICH Abib 16 was, QUOTE "the day after the sabbath ... ye shall wave the sheaf".
     
    #14 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Aug 1, 2011
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  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    WHY is it you REFUSE to go by the unambiguous, simple and clear identifications which the GOSPELS - the NEW Testament - meticulously supply in DETAIL and in DIVERS manners of THESE "three days"?

    I shall place them again right before your eyes:


    Three days NT texts

    All these Scriptures are in PERFECT AGREEMENT in every respect :


    Abib 14, Wednesday night and Thursday day = Fifth Day ....

    1A) HERE BEGINS the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    wherein Jesus ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell) :–
    Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.

    1B) HERE BEGINS the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    in which Jesus was delivered and crucified :–
    Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14

    1C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    when Jesus DIED and was deserted by all :–
    Mk15:37–41; Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30


    . . . . . .
    Abib 15, Thursday night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....

    2A) HERE BEGINS the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    the day whereon Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
    Mk15:42/Mt27:57, Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.

    2B) HERE is the NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    wherein Joseph begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law – undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:–
    Mk15:43–46a; Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40

    2C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    when Joseph and Nicodemus laid the body and closed the tomb; and men and women left for home :–
    Mk15:46b–47; Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42


    . . . . . . .
    Abib 16, Friday night and Saturday day = Seventh Day Sabbath....

    3A) HERE BEGINS the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    THAT JESUS WOULD RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
    Lk23:56b

    3B) HERE is the MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    Pilate ordered a guard “for the third day” :–
    Mt27:62–66

    3C) HERE is “IN the Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
    First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD :–
    Mt28:1–4.

    __________________________________________________ ___

    Abib 17, Saturday night and Sunday day = First Day ....

    4A) HERE begins the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth day of the passover season) :–
    that Jesus WOULD APPEAR on :–
    Mk16:1, “When the Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....”

    4B) HERE is the EVENING of this day,
    Jn20:1–10 Mary sees the DOOR STONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been OPENED);

    4C) HERE is the NIGHT of this day,
    Lk24:1–10 “DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY);
    Mk16:2–8 “very early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled terrified and told NO ONE”.

    4D) Here is sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
    Jn20:11f, Mk16:9 “Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early (sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary ....”
    Mt28:5–10 “The angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell .... Jesus met them” (after sunrise).
    Mt28:11–15 Guard to high priests.

    USE BIBLES OF BEFORE THE TWENTIETH CENTURY – they are not as wangled as the later ones. And compare those ancient translations with the modern ones to see the truth of the older ones!

     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Is Dr Walter tenacious or vexatious?
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    Dr Walter, Where did I “accuse” you “of ignoring part of this text”? Just like you here persist in making this text an issue between us now, so did you make it an issue between us before I even realised that we actually agree on it or that we both believe Crucifixion was on a Thursday. I have several times shown how we agreed, specifically on the “part of this text” which you are here moaning about, the meaning of the Preposition ‘apo’. So where did I “accuse” you “of ignoring part of this text”?

    Then why would “GE's position require… the use of "ek" NOT "apo"”, hey, “Why?” while my “position” is exactly the same as yours?! Why do you shoot yourself in the foot for no reason at all?

    Anyone can make a mistake, so, when YOU wrongly referred to “eis” in D&M’s circle, saying, “Eis begins WITHIN the circle to the outside”, I responded, <I remember Dana and Mantey’s ‘circle’, yes. You do not remember it, Dr Walter; anyway, you do not remember it correctly. It must have been an accident, Dr Walter, this, you’re saying, “prepositional chart using a circle … Eis begins WITHIN the circle to the outside”. But that is forgivable from the context of the present discussion.> That’s what I said. http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1705314#post1705314)

    Now, instead of admitting your mistake of then, you pretend as if I made mistake! But that is how I have come to know you, Dr Walter; characteristic of you…. Just take the following …

    “GE's position requires the use of "ek" NOT "apo." Why? Because "ek" would include the day of crucifixion in his counting but "apo" excludes it.” You telling me what my “position requires”, that it does “NOT”, “require…” “"apo"”. Characteristic of you, yes, for sure!

    What is wrong with your position – and this is what you won’t acknowledge –, is that OUR “counting” which is just Luke’s own “counting” as far as "apo" is concerned, is not the same as, and is irrelevant to, the “three days … it behoved the Christ to suffer” as “THUS IT IS WRITTEN” and referred to by Christ in Luke 24:46 and Matthew 12:40.

    TWO, “three days” spoken of; written about— WHICH YOU ARE NOT BLIND FOR, BUT PRETEND BLIND TO!

    What is wrong with your position – and this is what you ALSO won’t acknowledge – is, that THE “three days” “according to the Scriptures”— which are NOT referred to or alluded to or implied or even suggested in between verses 13 and 45— if these “three days” were supposed or meant by Luke in verse 21, and "ek" were employed, Luke then definitely would have said “today” Sunday was the FOURTH day. But since Luke does not use ‘ek’, “today” ‘Sunday’ was NOT ‘from inside / inclusive of’ the day “these things (delivered and crucifixion) happened” but “the third day SINCE” ‘apo’ “these things (delivered and crucifixion) happened”.

    The ABSENCE of ‘ek’ proves Luke did not write and Cleopas did not speak of the “three days” “on the third day” of which Jesus rose again from the dead.

    That; no more! And that is ALL, _IF_, SUPPOSED; NOT, as ACTUALLY, “three days” were in fact “counted” “since” the “crucifixion had happened” AS it is written IN LUKE and not ‘in the Scriptures’ in Prophecy, Promise or Law.

    Cleopas does not explain to Jesus the events of the Prophetic “three Days”; He expresses his ignorance and lack of understanding.

    Only when Jesus explained “how the Christ ought to have suffered as it is written” in the Old Testament are the “three days” first mentioned and are they the object of explanation— by the ONLY One Who at that stage knew anything or understood anything of the "three days" and "the third day" on which He in fact had raised from the dead.

     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    Dr Walter, you UNABASHED AND UNASHAMEDLY just go on and on to make the most FALSE suppositions and arrogations and accusations unimaginable!

    But I welcome it!

    Now expose yourself for what you really are, and BRING HERE THE QUOTES WHERE I made THESE claims or statements or what ever ! BRING THEM HERE! PLACE THEM HERE, because what you HAVE PLACED HERE, I emphatically deny I ever stated or even vaguely implied.

    If you are a man ... if you are a CHRISTIAN, PLACE MY OWN statements to the effect of what you are stating for truth in your own words with your own pen as if I am the author thereof. .

    To end this debate, once for all, because I'll capitulate lock stock and barrel if you brought that stuff of mine, HERE!

    God is my Witness.

     
    #18 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Aug 2, 2011
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  19. SakranMM

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    Really interesting break-down of the 3 days, but as my Scripture professor from seminary would say to questions of this nature: "Does it really matter?" The point is that He really died, and is indeed risen.

    It may be of interest to note that the gospels refer to Christ as dying on "the day of preparation" - in Greek παρασκυε (paraskeve), which means preparation, and which corresponds to our Friday. So call me a traditionalist here: I see Him in the Garden of Gethsemane on Thursday evening, brought before Pilate Friday morning, crucified at noon, dead at 3 PM, buried before sundown, in the tomb all day Saturday and Saturday evening, risen before dawn in the wee hours of Sunday morning. Friday afternoon(day 1) + Saturday (day 2) + early Sunday morning (day 3) = 3 days according to the Jewish way of keeping time. He rose ON the third day, not after the third day as some would have.

    But again, no matter how we look at it, it doesn't matter a great deal. We have to remember that these things were written well after the fact, and the purpose is not so we can break it down, but to understand that Christ did die, was buried, and rose again.
     
    #19 SakranMM, Aug 2, 2011
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  20. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn
    DW:
    I said it before; I say it again but without the EMPHATIC question-mark I used, Luke does NOT deny Sunday was the fourth day “from”, and, INCLUDING, the day of the Crucifixion!


    Look at your own comment above. That is the comment that I have been responding to. You say above in your own words that "from...INCLUDING the day of Crucifixion" Indeed in other posts you attempted to interpret the words "third day since" to make the Sunday the FOURTH day by "INCLUDING" the day of crucifixion in your accounting in regard to Luke 24:21.

    My response was and still is that for your theory of accounting to be correct Luke would have had to use "ek" as that would include the day of crucifixion but HE DID NOT us "ek" he used "apo" which EXCLUDES the day of crucifixion in his counting thus making Sunday the THIRD not the FOURTH day any way you wish to count it.

    You accused me twice of ignoring Luke 24:20 as part of this context in regard to how to count "third day" just as Itiut has also accused me of ignoring it. If you wish, I will take the time and go back and find that quote as well?
     

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