Those who are Christians but who don't believe in the TRINTY

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by RightFromWrong, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. RightFromWrong

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    I have come across two guys who say they are Born Again Christians, have the right answers when explaining why. One is a Bible preaching soul winning Godly guy, the other also a God fearing man. But they have commented on the fact that they do not believe that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. That they are different enities. I was told a true Christian will not deny the Trinty.

    I say they may be true Christians but misinformed. So Much false teaching these days.
    Kind of like the guy who believes he can LOSE his salvation. He may very well be saved ? But misinformed :(
     
  2. SavedbyHISGrace

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    No one who denies the Holy Trinity can ever be saved. Period. This is the most important "doctrine" in the Church, and Bible, and no one who has been born again by the Holy Spirit, can ever deny this great Truth! In my opinion they cannot be saved.
     
  3. ChrisTag

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    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

    If they don't believe in the Trinity, then they either believe that Jesus is not God, which is covered by the above verse, OR they are polytheistic.

    Either way, I would question their salvation. Many people can give a correct answer to the "born-again question" but are not truly saved:

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out s? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:22, 23
     
  4. following-Him

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    I can't help but find the news of anyone denying the Trinity both shocking and very sad. :( The Christadelphians and I believe, the JW's are among those who deny the Trinity but I wouldn't call them Christians anyway.

    Blessings

    followinghim
     
  5. RightFromWrong

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    Well knowing both this guys personally there is NOTHING else to indicate they are NOT saved.

    You have to admit it is very hard to humanly explain or understand how God can be 3 persons. I did tell them that the Bible list over 700 verses that explain the Trinity even though the word Trinity isn't used. And other main doctrines.

    Just like someone who believes you can lose your salvation they are able to explain most alot of vereses away. I honestly believe that whether I totally understand the Trinity or not, I still accept it by faith because Gods word says so.

    Gods word is very clear you CAN'T lose your salvation and yet there are those who believe you can. To me there isn't anything different between these two types. So the person who believes they can lose their salvation isn't saved either right?
     
  6. PastorSBC1303

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    First let me preface this by saying that I completely support the doctrine of the Trinity.

    However, is not what you say here basically meaning salvation is based on good or bad theology instead of the complete grace of God?
     
  7. RightFromWrong

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    Thats what I was thinking PastorSBC1303
     
  8. webdog

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    The Oneness theology doesn't believe in the Trinity, they believe Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit too. They do not deny, however, the work on the cross, or the message of salvation. PastorSBC is correct. I believe they believe in bad theology, but if they believe in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross for them, even as separate from the Trinity, I believe they are saved. To just say "they can NEVER be saved" because of this is false. We are saved by grace, not theology.
     
  9. SavedbyHISGrace

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    I totally disagree with those who suppose that you can be saved by denying the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. True, we are saved by grace, but, once a person is truly born agian by the Holy Spirit, they WILL believe in the Trinity, as the Spirit will make sure of this.

    It is so-called "bad theology" that branded many in the history of the Church, like Arius, Origen, etc, as heretics, and it is very evident that no heretic will ever enter heaven (read 2 Peter 2:1).

    We will not be saved by our theology, BUT, if we are truly saved, then our theology will be what the Bible really teaches, since the Spirit will lead us into the Truth. I cannot accept that a person who is truly born again, can ever be wrong in the fundamental doctrines, like the Holy Trinity, Deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the Infallibility and Inerrancy of the Holy Bible, etc. Otherwise we will next be accepting the Mormans and Jehovah's Witnesses as being truly saved. Theolgy is very important in determining in whether are person is really saved, as by their fruits we shall know. Oneness theology, for example, is from the devil, and has no place in the Holy Word of God, and no Oneness person is born again. I say this with the full authority of the teachings in the Holy Bible. You simply cannot deny or not believe in the Holy Trinity and be saved. This is unbiblical, and must be rejected as from the pit of hell.
     
  10. webdog

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    There are plenty of believers that believe in bad theology. For instance, I don't believe in calvinism. They claim Christ died only for a certain group, I believe Christ died for all. Clearly two HUGE differences in theology. Would I claim calvinists are not saved? No. The Church of Christ believes baptism is a necessity for salvation. I don't believe that is scriptural, and wrong. Would I ever claim all people who believe this are not saved? No. Satan is the author of confusion, which plenty of denominations are, but God uses this, too, for His glory. The requirements for eternal life are "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED". By adding "believing in truthful doctrine" to this minimizes Christ's death, and in itself is false doctrine.
     
  11. PastorSBC1303

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    Your name speaks of one thing....yet your posts speak of another....seems there is a contradiction :confused:

    I will stick with saved by grace, not theology.
     
  12. SavedbyHISGrace

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    What are you saying here? How can you compare the teachings of a man, John Calvin, with the teachings of Almighty God? It is no small thing to believe in the Holy Trinity, it is the most important doctrine in the Holy Bible. Do you not read what Jesus says in John 8:24? Here is very cleary says: "Therefore I say unto you, that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe, that I AM, you will die in your sins"

    What do you think Jesus means here? Clearly this. If anyone does not believe in His Deity, where He uses "I am" as in Exodus 3:14, they will die remaining in their sins. Likewise, in 1 John we read where John calls them of the Anti-christ, those who deny the real human nature of Jesus, as the Gnostics did, and taught that Jesus only "seemed" to have human nature like unto ours. (see 1 John 4:1-3)

    You simply cannot divorce theolgy from being a true believer, or else we will have to admit anyone who professes to accept that Jesus is the Saviour, and nothing more. If you would read the Epistles of Paul, and the Gospel of John, who will see that theology is the central plank of our faith, and it is this that determines who are, and are not, truly born again.
     
  13. SavedbyHISGrace

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    Your name speaks of one thing....yet your posts speak of another....seems there is a contradiction :confused:

    I will stick with saved by grace, not theology.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor, with all due respect, you are in grave error, if you suppose that you can be truly saved, but at the same time deny the fundamentals of the Christian Faith. You have ignored the bulk teachings of the New Testament, and the first 600 years of Church history, where theology was the touch-stone in determining those who are Orthodox, and those who are heretics.

    The Jews believe that their theology of the Person of God is correct, as they think they hold to what the Old Testament teaches. However, they deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and therefore the Holy Trinity.

    Are you suggesting that one can be truly saved by rejecting, or denying the Holy Trinity?
     
  14. PastorSBC1303

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    I am saying that salvation is SOLELY by the grace of Almighty God! It is NOT based on any theology good or bad.

    You have not posted one Scripture that even remotely supports that a person must accept the Trinity to be saved.
     
  15. webdog

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    I didn't.

    It is more important than believing saved by grace through faith? You don't really believe that, do you?

    So, you believe whoever doesn't agree with your theological thinking are going to die in their sins? There are plenty of denominations that believe that Jesus is "I AM", but haved different theological beliefs about other things in the Bible.

    I agree. This still does not prove those who believe in oneness, calvinism, arminianism, or baptismal regeneration are lost because they believe different than yourself. We are saved by God's grace through faith. Period.

    Scriptural proof? I dont' recall the words "theology" anywhere pertaining to salvation.

    I have read both and I believe that Jesus Christ is the central plank of our faith, not theology. Again, do you have scripture pertaining to theology as being necessary for salvation?
     
  16. SavedbyHISGrace

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    We are not talking about pre-conversion here, but post-conversion. If, as the OP suggests that these people are "born again", then surely what they believe must have a bearing of this. I am fully in agreement that salvation is from the grace of God, apart from any works. But, you cannot be serious in suggesting that a person who claims to be saved, can henceforth believe what they like? So, if a person believes that God and the devil are one and the same (as some do), but also accept that salvation is in Jesus alone, they are saved? What proof do you want from Scripture? As a pastor you should be well aware of the teachings of Scripture, that one cannot deny the Deity of Jesus, and be saved. I have shown from John's Gospel, where Jesus Himself says this. Are you saying that Jesus is wrong? You make it all too simple. It is NOT just believe in one strand of what the Bible teaches, and then deny the rest. It is 100% belief in the teachings of what Scripture teaches, and simply not what we want to accept.

    You have not answered by question. Can a person be born again, who rejects that God is a Trinity?
     
  17. SavedbyHISGrace

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    Webdog,

    Yes, there is no doubt that the doctrine of God, is mar more important than the doctrine of Salvation. This is evident from Scripture. If one does not have a correct understanding of the God of the Bible, then they will not have a correct understanding of salvation.

    It is not my theological thinking that you have to worry about, as no doubt that I am wrong in things that I believe. No, what I have show from John 8:24, are the Words of Almighty God Himself. Are you saying that Jesus is wrong to say what He did? He very clearly says that belief in His Deity is a necessary condition of Salvation. You cannot get away from this.

    I think that you are in error in supposing that any old theology will be acceptable, as long as someone believes a few right things, but could not care about the rest of what the Bible teaches.
     
  18. webdog

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    You mistake what I said. I agree that Jesus has to be believed in as God in order to be saved. I never claimed otherwise. But you can still be saved believing in Jesus Christ and for some unfortunate reason, bad theology. If I believed I had to be baptized daily AFTER I was saved, would I still be saved? If my thological thinking changed about something, do I lose my salvation? I believe theology is important, but correct theology in itself is not a requirement of salvation.
     
  19. PastorSBC1303

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    SavedbyHISGrace, your posts did not state or lead anyone to think you were referring to post-conversion.
     
  20. Johnv

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    As much as I abhor the rejection of belief in the Trinity, I don't think I agree with your statement.

    I've known a lot of people who got saved before they ever cracked open a bible. And some of those did not have a full reasnable understanding of doctrinal issues, including the trinity, until many years had gone by. One person didn't even accept the trinity until he had been saved 20 years.

    It's incomprehensible that a person must accept all Christian doctrine as a salvific requirement immediately upon conversion. It can take many many years to study scripture and come to a reasonably full understanding of Christian doctrines. Heck, there are learned men in their 80's who were saved all of their adult life, who are still arguing doctrine.

    I will agree with PastorSBC. We're saved by grace, not by theology. If bad theology barrs from heaven, then most of us won't make it for one reason or another.
     

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