"Thou shalt not kill" vs "You shall not murder...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by robycop3, Nov 27, 2004.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3
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    One of the most-misused verses in the King james bible is that little four-word verse Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not KILL."(Also at Deut.5:17.) The Hebrew word rendered 'kill' is 'ratsach', which can mean murder or kill for other reasons. However, most of the time this word appears in the Hebrew, it's in relation to murder. Every time the word 'kill' appears in the KJV before Ex.20:13, it's translated from other Hebrew words.

    What's ironic about the 'kill' rendering is that in the very next chapter, God decrees the death penalty for a variety of offenses.

    This verse has been misused for decades by opponents of capital punishment, and by many wishing to avoid military service, using religion as an excuse.(Yes, I realize many such people have genuine religious convictions, but are they CORRECT? Remember, David, the man after God's own heart, was a man of WAR.)It is used by animal-rights wackos as well.

    I believe a better rendering would've been, "Thou shalt not MURDER." God Himself ordered more than one execution, such as that of Achan & his family, and that of the unnamed Israeli in the wilderness who was gathering wood on the Sabbath.

    And in Matthew 19:18, the KJV renders jesus words thus: "He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,"

    The Greek word here is 'phoneuo', which means,'to murder'. It is not used to denote killing for other reasons such as in battle, self-defense, accidentally, or in a sanctioned execution.

    I'm not wanting to begin a capital punishment argument here; I'm just making the point of the extreme misuse of a small verse in the KJV.
     
  2. gb93433

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    NASU reads, "You shall not murder."
    NIV reads, "You shall not murder."
    YLT reads, "Thou dost not murder."

    RSV reads, "You shall not kill."
    KJV reads, "Thou shalt not kill."
    Darby reads, "Thou shalt not kill."
    ASV reads, "Thou shalt not kill."

    - Qal murder, slay, with premeditation; c. acc. pers., unawares; slay as avenger; esp. pt. as subst. = slayer, manslayer, without intent; murderer, with intent.
     
  3. Plain ol' Ralph

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    Err, since God is dealing with men in their dealings with other men; kill means murder. But it seems men are always trying their best to wiggle around this by forming their "loop-hole" in defining what is so easily understood by even the least educated, according to the intellectuals who even stop and take the time to consider if their really is any difference. But then the question might be asked: when did "murder" become a word?

    Seems the times we live in sets the mood when "to kill" is considered, especially since we live in that time that many men have more concern for animal life over the life of a child!!

    It does amaze me that men cannot discern this, but then afterall.... :rolleyes:
     
  4. Gershom

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    It's not hard to discern given the complete context of the whole Bible what "thou shalt not kill" refers to.
     
  5. Plain ol' Ralph

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    yer right!! Bro!
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Usually, the clear GREEK in the NT helps understand a debateful OT word in the HEBREW.

    Example: Almah in OT means young woman or virgin. NT uses virgin. So it is clear what the meaning of the more vague OT was.

    So here. NT gives a clear definition "Murder" to clarify the "kill/murder" of the OT. Ex 20 always has been "murder", implying human life.

    I "kill" with every breath (don't go there). Thousands/millions of micro-organisms die in and out.
     
  7. StraightAndNarrow

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    The nature of our relationship to God changed significantly between the first and second covenants. We're living today under the second covenant, the one in which Jesus said that all the law can be summed up by one word, LOVE. We are told to love God and to love our fellow man. How doing killing our fellow man demonstrate our love for him especially if he's not a Christian?
     
  8. robycop3

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    It's hard to love someone who's shooting at your family or you. God allows you every right of defense.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    They blow up the WTC on 9.11 and our government retaliates (not enough imho). That is a function of government, not of me as an individual. Need to make that distinction clear.
     
  10. StraightAndNarrow

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    Where do you find support for this in the New Testament?
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    I Timothy 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

    I provide food, shelter, safety, etc etc for my family. To do anything less makes me worse than the worst of mankind. I love my kids and wife so much that I would DIE for them, defending them to the last ounce of life.

    Following an example of Jesus . . .
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Right on, Brother.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. Logos1560

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    This same Hebrew word at Exodus 20:13 was translated "murder" at three verses [Ps. 94:6, Jer. 7:9, Hos. 6:9].

    Here is the rendering of Exodus 20:13 in some
    other translations:

    Thou shalt not commit murder (1808 Thomson's Bible]
    Thou shalt not murder (1916 revision of O. T.
    by a Jew, Alexandar Harkavy; 1917 Holy Scriptures According to Masoretic Text by Jewish Publication Society)
    You shall not murder (1971 King James II, 1982 NKJV)
     
  14. robycop3

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    Straightandnarrow:Where do you find support for this in the New Testament?

    Dr. Bob has already answered while I was away.

    Now, lemme ask...Where does Jesus tell the soldier not to serve his country by killing its enemies if necessary? His dealings with Romans were largely with soldiers during His ministry before His crucifixion.

    Where does He tell the policeman not to enforce the law by killing a perp if necessary. And where does He tell us not to defend our families or innocent victims?

    Did Jesus use force against people? If we could interview the merchants He physically ejected or chased outta the Temple, they'd tell you He used quite a bit of force. These merchants had no idea who He was.

    Get serious. You're not gonna stand by and let a murder occur if you have the ability to stop it. That would be a sin.

    While a cop, I shot a man who'd shot at me. he died about a month later because he failed to properly care for his wound.(A.45 slug in the hip) When discussing this after I was saved, one preacher said I was fully justified in shooting him, while another said it was my fault he died although HE laid around in jail making his wound bleed every day so he'd hafta go to the imfirmary, giving him the chance to look for an escape attempt.

    The dude had been surprised by fellow officers while pulling a stickup. He had shot at them, completely disregarding the innocent customers and employees' safety. He ran out the back door, saw me and shot at me(I was beside a steel dumpster, which I quickly stepped behind when I saw him point his gun.) He shot at another officer who had stepped behind another dumpster. I popped around the corner & fired 3 rounds, one of which struck him in the R-hip, breaking it, knocking him down, prompting his surrender.(My other 2 shots missed.) Looking at life with no parole as a 3-time loser, he was desperate to escape.

    Do I feel sorry I had to shoot him? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Would I do it over now that I'm a Christian? ABSOLUTELY YES!

    MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH...

    The context will tell us when 'kill' means 'murder', but since both words were used in 1604, wouldn't have it been simpler for the gb & AV translators to have said "murder" where applicable? In most of the other literature I've read in the English of the 1300s-1600s, the authors generally use 'kill' for animals or the accidental death of a human, & 'slay' for killing in battle, execution, or for animals. 'Murder' is always for the unlawful killing of another person, as is 'wrongly slew' or similar.
     

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