Thoughts on, Propitiation.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Dec 17, 2014.

  1. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; KJV Romans 3:22,23

    Paraphrase; God the Father, before placed, I believe before the foundation of the world, Christ Jesus his Son as propitiation, the place of mercy, the mercy seat.

    God the Father did this on the belief, the faith, that his Son the Christ Jesus would be obedient unto shedding, giving, his life's blood to redeem us.

    Hebrews 5:8 says: Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; He was not obedient because he was God the Son, he was Son and even though he was Son he learned obedience through things which he suffered. Phil. 2:8 says: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. He wasn't obedient because he was God the Son, the Son became obedient. As a matter of fact the next verse states, because of this obedience, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Hebrews 1:4 says he obtained by inheritance, this name that is more excellent than the angels.

    It was the faith, the belief, of God the Father in the obedience of his Son unto the shedding of the life blood of himself, that he before place his Son as the place of mercy. Propitiation.

    That is, the faith, by which you; Was, are, and will be saved. Now how is it that it is, according to mercy, propitiation, we have been saved? What allows the blood of the sinless Jesus, the blood wherein was, his life, to wash away our sins?

    Could the blood of a sinless dead man have washed away my and your sins? 1 Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. There is no, according to mercy, is Christ be not raised, there is no faith.

    not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His (God the Father's) mercy (the before placing of the Son, because of belief in obedient blood of him) He (God the Father) saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (of the Son of God) Titus 3:5 Then and only then could the Spirit be poured forth on us.

    Acts 2:32,33 says the very same thing. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (regeneration) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, (renewing of Holy Spirit) he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Compare: Rev 1:5 NKJV and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, (regeneration) and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
     
    #1 percho, Dec 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2014
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    God does not operate by faith because God does not need faith. He operates by sovereign power to obtain whatsover he wills. Whatever he purposes He obtains. Remember "faith is the substances of things HOPED FOR." God does not have to HOPE for anything.

    Moreover, you have completely annihilated Romans 3:24 and made it absolutely meaningless. Propitiation does not equal "mercy seat". The lid of the ark was the place where blood was applied BECAUSE it was the meeting place between God and sinful man in regard to the LAW of God (tablets of stone in the ark) and the LIFE of God (budded rod of Aaron) through Jesus Christ (jar of manna). The blood EQUALS the SINLESS LIFE of Christ that SATISFIED the Law's righteous demands both in regard to RIGHTEOUSNESS required and PENALTY demanded for sin. That is why we are "JUSTIFIED FREELY" or without a cause found in us as the cause is found in Christ alone.


    No he did not! His Son IS GOD as much as the Father IS GOD. No faith is required by either as they have POWER to do whatsoever they will. The eternal covenant is not a FAITH BASED covenant on the Part of God! It is a SOVERIGN WILL based covenant - Eph. 1:11. There is no ifs, buts and or's but sovereign decreed committments.




    Although Jesus was the Son of God, who never had to learn obedience but was sinless, he became a man subject to suffering and experientially learned, as a human by suffering what is the price of obedience to God. Humans cannot be obedient to God without suffering, and that is the lesson He learned experientially through suffering.


    Jesus was not resistant to God's will or disobedient so that he had to be forced by suffering to learn obedience, Paul does not mean that at all. Suffering taught him BY EXPERIENCE what obedience to God requires in this world and what it feels like. Hence, he knows what price we must pay as humans when we obey God and therefore because of his suffering due to obedience, he can be an empathetic High Priest knowing from EXPERIENCE the consequences of obedience which is suffering.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Dec 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2014
  3. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Question? In Phil 2:7,8 did Jesus become an obedient, man (ἀνθρώπων)?
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    No! He was obedient from birth as he said "I ALWAYS DO" that which pleases the Father. So he did not "become" obedient as though he was formerly disobedient. The atonement depended upon his obedience to the Law.
     
  5. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    What?

    Albert Barnes
    Even as I also overcame - As I gained a victory over the world, and over the power of the tempter. As the reward of this, he is exalted to the throne of the universe Philemon 2:6-11, and in these honors, achieved by their great and glorious Head, all the redeemed will share.

    He was tempted by the devil. He was tempted in the flesh, in the Garden. You have read Heb 5:7 he feared and being Son (of God) he learned obedience. Stayed as the obedient one would be more correct. Not my will but thine Father. Even after saying that and being strengthened by an angel he was still in agony sweat drops of blood falling from his brow. I believe Jesus was striving against being disobedient and he overcame.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    No, Christ did not have a fallen nature, like we do, so that he struggled with an internal inclination to do evil. We have an internal inclination toward evil (Rom. 7:18-20). He had no such internal inclination to do evil, like we do, and which we must overcome for rewards in heaven. He did have the same external obstacles that made obedience anything but a down hill slide, but provided an up hill battle. In other words, obedience COST HIM. It cost him friends, it cost him blood, sweat and tears or bodily comforts. It cost him his life ultimately.
     
  7. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    In political chatter, the phrase "derangement syndrome" refers to the inability to objectively consider what someone says or stands for. This thread seems unable to grasp the basic truth, propitiation refers to Christ becoming the means of our salvation. Christ is our propitiation. Thus God set forth Christ as the means of our salvation through faith in His blood.

    The Gospel of Christ
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    No, that is simply false! Propitiation in Biblical context refers to the SATISFACTION of the Legal demands of God's Law that man has either violated or come short of attaining, but which Christ has SATISFIED in his own person for his people.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363
    Biblicist, do you see a difference in "atonement," "expiation," and "propitiation"? What I am asking is if you would consider propitiation to involve (specifically) the turning away of God's wrath as opposed to speaking solely to a debt paid.
     
  10. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Folks, Calvinists can claim Christ is not our propitiation (means of salvation) till the cows come home. Those that deny we were bought with the blood of our Master are suffering derangement syndrome. 2 Peter 2:1
     
  11. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363

    I don't think Calvinists deny Christ as your means of salvation, Van.
     
  12. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    With all due respect Sir, I can read, and one Calvinist denied Christ is our means of salvation.

    Here is what I wrote:
    And here is the Calvinist response:
    The question you should answer is what part of false do you not understand?
     
  13. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363

    I see the debate over the term, but not a validity to the claim Christ is not your means of salvation. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
     
    #13 JonC, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2014
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,081
    Likes Received:
    204
    The term "propitiation" has the ultimate goal of SATISFYING the laws full demands against sinners. So "propitiation" has the law in view.

    The instrumental MEANS to accomplish that ultimate goal is the Person and Life of Jesus Christ as our Substitute.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363

    Is that not better defined as expiation rather than propitiation?
     
  16. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363
    What I am suggesting is that perhaps ἱλασμός denotes an aspect of atonement specifically focused on appeasing or turning away the wrath of God (rather than pointing to “satisfying the laws full demands against sinners). I am, of course, not denying that atonement includes such a meaning (satisfying the demands of God’s law). But there are two questions using propitiation as defined in post #14. First, is “propitiation” the correct rendering of ἱλασμός? (I am taking it that this is the word you are dealing with (used in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10), but please correct me if I am wrong). So far in this thread it seems that we all agree the word is defined as “propitiation.” So we can skip to the second issue. This is quite simply defining “propitiation.” When we look at the atonement we can see many aspects. One is Christ’s death as reparation for guilt, as paying our “sin debt.” If you are saying that by Christ’s death our sins were wiped away, this is expiation. Another aspect is the turning away of God’s wrath. If you are saying that Christ’s death appeased the wrath of God, this is propitiation. While Jesus’ death certainly had the effect of expiating sin, I don’t think we can avoid that it also propitiates God’s promised punishment of sin and sinners whose transgressions remained un-atoned for on the last day. But “propitiation” and “expiation” are not synonyms.

    What also needs to be considered is the context of the passage in question. If you are looking at 1 John 2:2 then Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of mankind (the subject in that passage is Jesus, not “sins” and not “man.” Taking it as all sin does not mean that all sins are paid, but that Christ is one and only appeasement of God’s wrath for all sin…i.e., there is no other, it’s “in Christ” or “object of God’s wrath). If you are wondering what sins are propitiated for, then it is the sins of those who believe.
     
  17. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    What is, "the laws full demand against sinners"?

    What is, "the wrath of God"?

    Is there a difference between the two?

    Not that I would hold Merriam Webster, theological, I thought I would post this.

    Definition of EXPIATION

    1
    : the act of making atonement
    2
    : the means by which atonement is made

    Definition of PROPITIATION

    1
    : the act of propitiating
    2
    : something that propitiates; specifically : an atoning sacrifice


    Theological difference, please?

    Lev. 17:11 YLT for the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul

    Bearing that in mind; Would the blood of the Christ have atoned for our sins had there not have been renewal of life to the one who had obediently shed his life's blood?

    1 Cor 15:17 YLT and if Christ hath not risen, vain your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

    Would what you believe about anything even exist? Um, I don't think that is what your faith means there anyway.

    Let's say in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus had not said, "Father not my will but thine," and had said something like, "Father, I don't think I can go through with giving my life for them," and those with wicked hands took him and killed him. Of course Jesus did not say the latter, yet scripture shows in Heb 5:7-8 and Heb 12:4 and Luke 22:39-46 there was real agony in the temptation even unto the shedding of sweat drops of blood striving against sin.

    And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we Gal 3:23-25

    What was, "the faith" that came? When did, "the faith," come? What does ,"the faith," have to do with the blood? From above it appears it was instrumental in removing one from being under the child conductor, the law, therefore let mes the relationship of, "the faith," to the grace of God - See Gal.2:21 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law -- then Christ died in vain.

    If there had not been,"the faith," there would have been any Grace and Christ would still be dead.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363
    Good morning Percho, :wavey:

    I do not see there as being a difference here. Our Sin rightly deserves God’s wrath, and the righteousness and justness of God demonstrates that He will visit that wrath on mankind for this guilt. His Son became sin and bore that penalty for us (for those who believe) as He is the propitiation (the atonement that turns away God’s wrath) for sin.
    Before we look at the differences in theological implications we need to look at the difference in actual definition. Expiation and propitiation simply do not mean the same thing (hence the debate over translating ἱλασμός...although most have settled into "propitiation").

    When I look up the words in the dictionary, here is what I get:

    Expiation: means “to put an end to,” or “to extinguish the guilt incurred by; to make amends for.”
    Propitiate means "to gain or regain the favor or goodwill of", "to appease."

    The words themselves both, in our context, speak to the atonement. But where expiation alludes to the sins (e.g., wiping away sin, extinguishing the guilt incurred by sin, or making amends for sin) propitiation alludes to God (e.g., turning away the wrath of God, appeasing God).

    The theological differences are huge. Expiation lends itself towards exploring the cancellation of our sin debt. Those who believe are not held guilty by God, He “remembers” their sin no more. Propitiation lends itself towards viewing Jesus as interceding for us by becoming sin for us and taking on the penalty of our sins in our stead. Both are aspects of atonement, but they are not the same. What you would do is choose the word that best highlights what you are speaking of. If it is the “wiping out of our sin,” or “paying our debt,” then you’d say expiation. If it is “turning away the wrath of God” then you would use propitiation. If you are not focusing on either aspect but speaking in a more encompassing way, then you would use “atonement.”
     
    #18 JonC, Dec 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2014
  19. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    To repeat, Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. All this effort to read the meanings of English words back into the Greek is nonsense. Not spiritually "in Christ" unsaved, "in Christ" saved. We receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross when God spiritually transfers us into Christ, and not before. God's wrath was not turned away from any sinner, any one who by nature is a child of wrath, until the sinner undergoes the circumcision of Christ.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363

    I agree with everything you state here except perhaps a denial that 1 John 2:2 speaks of propitiation rather than atonement in general (it is not reading back into the Greek, "propitiation " has a specific meaning as does the Greek word...I take it you object to "propitiation", which is fair but I think propitiation serves your view just fine). But you are right that there are none "in Christ" but those who believe.
     
    #20 JonC, Dec 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2014

Share This Page

Loading...