Thousands 'Resolved' to Get Jesus Right

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Revmitchell

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    We need to be rescued from an inadequate understanding of Jesus, said a prominent theologian.

    While it's obvious that atheists and those who follow a liberal theology hold to an inaccurate view of Jesus, not all evangelical Christians have it right either.

    "It's easy to say ... we are evangelicals. We are here because we love Jesus. We're here because we desire Jesus. We're here because we worship Jesus. We're here because we serve Jesus. Yes, but I wonder just how reductionist, how inadequate is our understanding of Jesus," said Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., a well-known evangelical and president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

    "When you look writ large across evangelicalism ... there's good reason to wonder," he told thousands at the Resolved Conference in Palm Springs, Calif., over the weekend.


    More Here
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    I agree with about 99% of what Mohler says here. The only thing I wish he would clarify is that we know Jesus through the scriptures, but also personally, through the leading and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He makes it sound as if the scriptures mediate our relationship with Christ.

    We could live a God-honoring life without the scriptures through the direct ministry and nurturing of God (think Abraham, among others), but God has provided scripture to be an objective source of revelation to guide our subjective experience as we live as a disciple of Jesus.
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    This is in complete error. Anyone in my church who refused to repent of such an idea would face church discipline. The word of God has always been the source of revelation to man. The word has been delivered to man in various ways but revelation has always been via His word. We cannot live a God honoring life without Scriptures at all ever until Christ, the living Word, returns.
     
  4. Servent

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    Im not a pastor, I do believe to have true revelation you must have both scripture and the Holy Sprit. Without both your just walking in circles.
     
  5. Baptist Believer

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    I don't think it would surprise anyone that you would not tolerate me as a member of your congregation.

    Absolutely. But, just as you said here, the word (communication/revelation) of God comes in various ways. For a long time, the revelation was NOT written revelation (that is, scripture).

    I specifically mentioned Abraham so people would know what I'm talking about. I gained this understanding specifically from the writings of Paul in Galatians and Romans, where he points out that Abraham's faith in God preceded the writing of the scriptures (that is, the Law given to and recorded by Moses - a descendant of Abraham) by hundreds of years.

    I never advocated getting rid of the scriptures. I was just pointing out a scriptural truth regarding our relationship to the scriptures.
     
  6. tinytim

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    Not quite that simple. God has chosen Scripture to be the objective way he has revealed himself to us... but he also reveals himself to us through His Spirit, and nature (Rom 1). Plus, there have been many, many great men and women of God that never had the word. Think, Early church, while the canon was still in infancy. Many early Christians only had part of the NT. Think, dark ages, when the Word was only handled by bishops... Many good Christians still lived on this earth. Think, illiterate early America, that never could read the word, my grandpa being one, lived a great Christian life, and only knew a few verses.

    So, I appreciate your staunch stand on the Word, however to say a Christian must have and understand the Bible condemns a lot of Christendom throughout church history. It also underestimates the working of the Holy Spirit that also reveals things to God's people.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    But it was through God's word.

    You did not gain your false understanding from anywhere in scripture. Abraham's faith came as a result of the word of God. (Genesis 12:1)

    The net effect of your original statement was scripture is not necessary. Which is the obvious conclusion if we can live without them. Fact is we cannot.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    Sorry to disagree but no believer of the one true living God has ever not had the Word. Nothing I have said underestimates the Holy Ghost. I have not addressed Him but that does not lead to underestimating Him.
     
  9. Baptist Believer

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    You need to define your terms here.

    You have capitalized "Word", so I assume you are referring to Jesus.

    If that's the case, I agree. But you're also evading the issue.

    If you mean written scripture when you say "Word/word", then I must disagree and point out that Paul clearly bases his whole argument in Galatians that Abraham DID NOT have the Law (or any other written scripture, if you believe that Moses wrote the Pentetauch.)
     
  10. Baptist Believer

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    Um, yes. That was the point you condemned in your original response.


    My understanding is not false. Your inability to argue against it on the basis of scripture demonstrates that very well. Paul clearly taught that Abraham was in right relationship with God ("Abram believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness") WITHOUT having written scripture.

    But it was not the written word of God... It was direct communication. Again, that's the point you condemned earlier.

    Yes, because that's what the scripture plainly teaches.

    The fact is, we can... if scripture is unavailable to us. However, that's not what God intends for those of us who have the scriptures available.

    The reason this point is important is that it clarifies our relationship to the scriptures. The scriptures themselves do not save us from our sins, give us new life, empower us to minister (in the sense of the gifts of the Spirit), or reconcile us to God. The Holy Spirit uses the scripture to nurture, inform, correct, instruct and train us in righteousness.

    Scripture (to be clear, the written word of God) is exceptionally important, but not indispensable. God wants us to know, use, heed and treasure His written word, but it does not take the place of a personal relationship with God.
     
  11. thegospelgeek

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    IMO this falls under the definition of "vain babblings". Abraham had direct revalation from God. God has chosen to give us his written word. Should I choose to ignore it, will he bless me? The Holy Spirit uses scriptures "for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

    Had he chosen not to give his Word/word, I am sure he could use another method. But he did not.
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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    The only reason it is important (which I explained in my last post), is that it clarifies our relationship to scripture, which makes a big difference when dealing with other issues.

    This particular issue was at the heart of a now famous exchange at the Southern Baptist Convention when they were considering the adoption of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. This issue was discussed to clarify the distinction between the written word of scripture and the living Word, Who is Christ.

    Absolutely.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    We will have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to debate against circular reasoning.
     
  14. Baptist Believer

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    Not circular at all.

    It's okay to say that you misunderstood my initial post or even (*gasp*) admit you were mistaken.
     
  15. gb93433

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  16. gb93433

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    Two good books have been written on that subject-- and Crazy Love and Radical. Francis Chan, the author of Crazy Love lives in a 1000 square foot house with his family. He was pastoring a 4,000 member church.

    I am watching and wondering what will happen with those who are preaching on the subject and how the other leaders who work with them will respond. That kind of accoutability and practrice requires sacrifice.

    How can we live as the rich do in other countries and people are starving? I asked a man who was from another country where there is a huge difference between the rich and poor. He told me that you learn to ignore it. I have been asking myself the question, "Have I done that amongst people I know in the church and the community where I live?" That is a discussion my wife and I have had the past few weeks.
     
  17. gb93433

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    People can live a life dishonoring to God and have the scriptures. However they cannot live a life that honors God without the application of the scriptures. It is the application which makes the difference. James addressed the issue of the difference between a creedal faith in Judaism and a genuine saving faith in Christ.

    To live a life honoring to God one must have God Himself.

    When I apply James 1:5 that is having a relationship with God. In the Bible faith is a verb and is dynamic. It is not an intellectual static faith.

    In the early church only about 2% of the people could read. The messages were given orally.
     
  18. HankD

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    John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from His mother's womb.

    Yes he was an exception but God does what He wants whether we have His word or not.

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

    HankD​
     
  19. Revmitchell

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    You cannot have the application of scripture nor the oral presentation of scripture without scripture.
     
  20. gb93433

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    While that is true, but to have a relationship with God it must extend further than just words on a page because it must be the application of scripture. Otherwise you just have an intellectual Christianity and not a living, dynamic relationship with God. One who longs to know God seeks to lead others to Christ and make disciples. However one can long to know all about God for intellectual profit and self only.
     

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