Titus 2 v 14

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Robert J Hutton, Aug 23, 2006.

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  1. Robert J Hutton

    Robert J Hutton
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    Question: In the KJV this verse reads: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". However, in the French (Louis Segond version) it reads "For the grace of God, source of salvation for all men, has been manifested". Although both are based on the received text, one says that the Grace of God is for all men, the other says that the Grace of God has appeared to all men. There is a clear difference; which is right.

    Kind regards to all.


    Bob
     
  2. Brandon C. Jones

    Brandon C. Jones
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    I don't know much about French, but I guess your talking about Titus 2:11. Hopefully, someone who knows French better can see if the translation in French is indeed not making the dative clause "to all men" modify the verb (appeared or manifested) as its indirect object because your English version of it does not. If your translation of the French is indeed correct, then it is odd because it has the dative clause "to all men" modifying "soterios," which is an odd grammatical choice. I would say that the KJV is preferable here.

    You are correct it is not a difference in text in this instance.
     
    #2 Brandon C. Jones, Aug 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2006
  3. StefanM

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    "11Car la grâce de Dieu, source de salut pour tous les hommes, a été manifestée."

    Robert Hutton is correct about the L.S. version.

    It doesn't appear to be that odd of a structure, actually. The dative "to all men" immediately follows "soterios," which is one of a group of adjectives that call for datives.

    In Greek, "to all men," is at the very end of the verse, while "(it was) revealed" is at the very beginning. I think, given the adjective, that LS is closer to accurate, though I prefer other renderings.
     
  4. Brandon C. Jones

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    The majority of the translators of the English NRSV adopted such an approach and put the other reading in the margin. However, most other major English translations have "to all men" as the indirect object of the verb.

    Oh well, as in many little nitpicky issues like this the difference in meaning is not significant.
     
  5. StefanM

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    NIV For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

    NKJV For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

    TNIV For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people

    ALT For the saving grace of God was revealed to all people,

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NASB For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

    ESV For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

    HCSB For the grace of God has appeared, with salvation for all people,

    NLT For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.

    ASV For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

    RV For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

    RSV For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,

    NRSV For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,

    NAB For the grace of God has appeared, saving all

    NET For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

    -------------

    That doesn't seem to support your assertion.
     
  6. Brandon C. Jones

    Brandon C. Jones
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    my bad thanks for doing the research to correct me. i'm bored with this now.
     
  7. StefanM

    StefanM
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    I was bored halfway through my looking up verses, but I figured, "I've gone this far. I might as well finish."

    I don't think it makes that much of a difference. There is sufficient ambiguity to warrant an open mind to both kinds of renderings.
     
  8. Brandon C. Jones

    Brandon C. Jones
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    lol...I've been there before :)
     
  9. Robert J Hutton

    Robert J Hutton
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    Many thanks for your replies; due apologies for getting the wrong verse, I was so concerned to get the right translation from the French I put 2 v 14 instead of 2 v 11. However, coming back to the original question it is not so nit-picky as one might think which way round the verse should be. Clearly the Grace of God for salvation has not appeared to all men (as not all men have even heard the Gospel), but salvation is for all men.

    Kind regards to all

    Bob
     
  10. StefanM

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    That conclusion assumes that "to all men" can only refer to every individual without exception. I think a more likely conclusion is that "to all men" may refer simply to all men without ethnic distinction (i.e. not to just the Jews).
     
  11. Bluefalcon

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    There are some variants for this passage in the Greek MS tradition.

    (Aleph* OL-ms vg-mss): "For the grace of God the Savior has appeared to all men."

    (F G OL-mss vg co): "For the grace of God our Savior has appeared to all men."

    The Byzantine tradition has a feminine definite article before 'salvation' (which is masculine), linking it to 'grace' and the various translations such as 'which brings', 'which leads to', 'which is the source of', etc., if they don't follow the Byzantine reading here, at least assume its function. This doesn't answer the direct object question, though.

    (Aleph-2 A C* D* 0278. 1739): They don't have the feminine definite article before 'salvation', but neither does this answer the direct object question.

    My own opinion is that the direct object, 'to all men', goes with the verb 'has appeared', which is common for the verb FAINW, even though the verb here is the more forceful but less used EPIFAINW. God's grace that leads to salvation HAS APPEARED to all men. This is also consistent with Paul's argument in Romans.
     
  12. Eliyahu

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    I think Bluefalcon is correct.
    Apparently there is a textual variance, between Majority Texts and Minority texts ( A, C, Aleph, etc). A, C, Aleph don't have the article, which may have caused the difference in translations.

    Another point which we keep in mind is that σωτηριοs is not the participle of a verb, which reduces the possibility to connect with πασιν ανθρωποιs

    Also the usage of επεφανη (epefane) is mostly with dative even though ac 27:20 appears to be intransitive.
    Luke 1:79 may be the good example of the same usage.

    As for French version, Alliance Biblique Universelle (Nouvelle Version segond revisee) has the same wording as the one(Louis Segond) mentioned above. Are they different each other?
     
    #12 Eliyahu, Aug 26, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2006
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