TNIV Compared With NASBU

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I've already had a thread comparing the TNIV with the GNB proving that the former is not to be lumped in with the dynamic equivalency versions.Now it's time to try something a bit different.

    The NASBU is thought of as one of the most formally-equivalent translations around.The TNIV has no such claim.It stands on a balanced principle -- a mediating philosophy between the overly dynamic and the overly literal versions.It positions itself somewhere in the middle between the NLTse and the NASBU.

    The two translations have differing translational philosophies.So when the wording of the TNIV is not the same as the NASBU doesn't somehow mean the former is deficient.The NLTse differs even more with NASBU renderings -- yet it fulfills its goals as a faithful translation.

    I think it would be instructive to show sort of side-by-side comparisions between these two translations in the book of 1 Peter.I will cover select verses.

    NASBU at the top and the TNIV below.

    1:6
    N : In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials
    T :In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

    1:8
    N : and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory
    T : Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy

    1:11
    N : seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
    T : trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

    It's interesting that Robert Reymond says that the NASBU is a "very misleading translation. It should be : the time and circumstances.Literally :Which or what kind of time." Well what do you know? The TNIV captured that perfectly.

    1:12
    N : It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -- things into which angels long to look.
    T : It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.Even angels long to look into these things.

    1:14
    N : As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance
    T : As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.

    1:19
    N : but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
    T : but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

    1:23
    N : for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
    T : For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    1:25
    N : BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER."
    And this is the word which was preached to you.
    T : but the word of the Lord endures forever."
    And this is the word that was preached to you.

    ______________________________________________________

    So far it looks like the TNIV reads like a NASBU Junior.
     
  2. Rippon

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    Some Verses In Chapter 2 Of 1 Peter

    2:1
    N : Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and slander
    T : Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy,envy, and slander of every kind.

    2:2
    N : like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation
    T : Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation

    2:5
    N : you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    T : you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

    2:10
    N : for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD;you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
    T : Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    2:18
    N : Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.
    T : Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

    Slaves is more accurate.John MacArthur has a whole sermon devoted to "dulos".

    There seems to be some disagreement in one section -- the NASBU has "with all respect" while the TNIV has "in reverent fear of God."

    2:22
    N : WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH
    T : "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

    2:24
    N : and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and to live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
    T : "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."

    _____________________________________________________________

    If someone wants to call the TNIV "dynamic" based on a comparision with the NASBU in the first two chapters of 1 Peter -- they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.In my representative verses of these two chapters, aside from minor details in one verse -- the two versions are virtually the same.
     
  3. Rippon

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    Chapter 3 Of 1 Peter

    3:1
    N : In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives.
    T : Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives.

    3:3
    N : Your adornment must not be merely external -- braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses
    T : Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes.

    The HCSB's translation of this verse is almost the same as that of the TNIV.There is nothing about "braiding the hair" as such -- but elaborate hairstyles."Putting on dresses"? Fine or beautiful clothes is the point.

    3:5
    N : For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands
    T : For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands

    3:10
    N : For,
    "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE HIS GOOD DAYS,
    MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT."
    T : For,
    "Whoever among you would love life
    and see good days
    must keep your tongue from evil
    and your lips from deceitful speech."

    3:11
    N : "HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
    HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT."
    T : "Turn from evil and do good;
    seek peace and pursue it."

    3:12
    N : "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
    AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
    BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."
    T : "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
    and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
    but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

    3:17
    N : For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for
    doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
    T : It is better, if it is God's will,to suffer for doing good
    than for doing evil.

    3:18
    N : For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust,
    so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit.
    T : For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

    3:19
    N : in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison
    T : In that state he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

    The HCSB also has "In that state".

    3:21
    N : Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you -- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
    T : and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

    The HCSB has "the pledge of a good conscience toward God".

    3:22
    N : who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
    T : who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand -- with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

    ____________________________________________________________

    At this point,despite some minor differences,the TNIV in 1 Peter isn't far removed from the NASBU.The TNIV here is largely keeping close to the formally-equivalent style of translation.
     
  4. Rippon

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    Select Verses of Chapter 4 Of 1 Peter

    2
    N : so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
    T : as a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

    Whereas the NASBU has "for the lusts of men" the HCSB's footnote has :"Lit. -- for desires of human beings".

    4
    N : In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you
    T : They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

    Here we see some differences.The same thought is expressed, but while the NASBU has "same excesses of dissipation" the TNIV has "reckless,wild living".

    5
    N : but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    T : But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

    8
    N : Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
    T : Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

    9
    N : Be hospitable to one another without complaint.
    T : Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling.

    12
    N : Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you.
    T : Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

    13
    N : but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
    T : But rejoice in asmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

    15
    N : Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler
    T : If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.

    16
    N : but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
    T : However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

    17
    N : For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
    T : For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

    18
    N : AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
    T : and,
    "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
    what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

    19
    N : Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
    T : So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
     
  5. TCGreek

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    Rippon, thanks for this comparison. It sure reveals a whole lot about the TNIV.
     
  6. Rippon

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    What did it reveal to you TCG?
     
  7. puros_bran

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    Rippon,
    If I may, Why do you campaign so hard for the TNIV?
     
  8. Rippon

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    Well, it's a good version which has been terribly maligned over the years.My little efforts are nothing compared to the vast disinformation campaign.

    Besides,these kinds of threads should be considered informative. I mean when the disinformation bandwagons roll on about the dangerous,egalitarian,loose,liberal TNIV -- it would be helpful to see it actually compared with a super-dynamic GNB and the ultra-formally-equivalent NASU. Many in the Christian community are lemmings. I'm getting them to see things for themselves.
     
  9. puros_bran

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    Well thats a good point, the disinformation part that is....

    I was just curious as to the motivation, you've been working it pretty hard lately.
    I gave my TNIV to a guy I work with. It was either that or my NASB, considering the NASB was a gift from the wife I didn't think that route would be advisable. I'll probably pick up another TNIV when its their turn to be on sale again.
     
  10. Rippon

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    Eleven Verses from Chapter Five Of 1 Peter

    1
    N : Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
    T : To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ's sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

    2
    N : shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain,but with eagerness;
    T : Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, watching over them -- not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;

    3
    N : nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
    T : not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

    The HCSB's wording is the same as the TNIV here.

    4
    N : And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
    T : And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

    7
    N : casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.
    T : Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

    8
    N : Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
    T : Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

    9
    N : But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
    T : Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your fellow believers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

    "Fellow believers" or 'family of believers' are better word choices than "brethren".

    "Being experienced" as the HCSB has it, and "undergoing" (as the TNIV puts it)are superior to the awkward-sounding "being accomplished".

    10
    N : After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
    T : And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

    12
    N : Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!
    T : With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.

    Yeah, it's Silas in case some may mistakenly think Silvanus is another character.

    13
    N : She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son Mark.
    T : She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

    14
    N : Greet one another with a kiss of love.
    Peace be to you all who are in Christ.
    T : Greet one another with a kiss of love.
    Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

    ___________________________________________________________

    I don't see the TNIV even being much of a mediating translation in 1 Peter, much a dynamic-equivalent.It pretty much tracks the NASBU.
     
  11. Rippon

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    Conclusion ...

    I put 49 of the 105 verses of this book of 1 Peter from the NASBU and TNIV side-by-side.If these examples from this epistle are representative of the whole New Tesament (and I'm not making the claim --- just saying "if") -- then the TNIV is certainly in the formally-equivalent camp. It words things more clearly than the NASBU -- but it most assuredly is closer to the NASBU than many have pictured it before. And plenty among the "many" are fans of the TNIV.

    Do any of you disagree? If so,in what ways?
     
  12. TCGreek

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    That it is quite formal, contrary to uninformed critics.
     
  13. Phil310

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    I think the TNIV has improved on the translation of the NIV in places. Too bad it uses the gender neutral language, otherwise it would replace my NIV.
     
  14. Rippon

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    It strives for gender accurate language. Are you a fan of the NLTse? It uses a bit more inclusive language than the TNIV. The HCSB and ESV use a lot more generic language than the NIV. Are they wrong for doing so? It's really revealing that the footnotes of the ESV giveth where the text taketh away with respect to inclusive language.Where the ESV has the word "brothers" in the text there are about 151 footnotes saying :"Or brothers and sisters".The footnotes should have been extended to more than 200 times to be consistent.

    "Consistent", did I say consistent? The anti-TNIV hype about the feminist stealth version completely ignored the fact that the term "brothers and sisters" were completely acceptable as alternative renderings in the ESV.If the revisers would have just reversed the two items --putting the footnotes in the text and putting the text wording of "brothers" in the footnotes -- there would have been very little reason for such a ruckus in the first place.
     
  15. Phil310

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    I'm just saying that I like the update but dislike the gender neutrality. Yes I'm aware of the NLT and others that use it but it is not as loudly advertised and i don't like the inconsistency of various groups to shun loudly the TNIV but say nothing of the NLT. The Association my church belongs to has publicly criticized the TNIV for its gender neutral position but has said nothing of the NLT. I even have heard denominational leaders read the NLT!

    Thanks for the contrast. It does help to see it.
     
  16. Rippon

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    Phil,thanks for your comments. Again, the TNIV does not employ gender neutrality in its translation. Do you own an ESV or HCSB? On a more limited scale they both use inclusive language. Do you object to that? If so,stick with the NIV,NASBU or NKJ.
     
  17. Tater77

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    I believe the TNIV / NIV only uses dynamic equivalence when its needed. When the literal makes sense without interpretation, there is no need for it.
     
  18. Rippon

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    I purchased a new book over the weekend. It's called :Interpreting The New Testament Text : Introduction To The Art And Science Of Exegesis. The editors are Darrell L. Bock and Buist M. Fanning.

    Chapter three features Grammatical Analysis by J. William Johnson.On page 60 he says:"In comparison with the formal-equivalent variety (e.g., NASB, NIV), translations that tend toward the dynamic-equivalent range (e.g., NET, NLT) will usually reflect more specifically."

    Chapter eleven is called Scripture Citing Scripture by Darrell L. Bock. He discusses the Targums -- Aramaics renderings of the Old Testament on page 258.

    "These ran from very literal translations to somewhat paraphrastic renderings... Targum Ongelos, for example,is a translation comparable to the KJV, NASB, NIV, or RSV in approach. At other timesTargums are more interpretive; the targum of Neofiti reminds one of the Living Bible in certain sections."
     
  19. Thermodynamics

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    In my opinion, if the original manuscripts read "men" and a translation renders that as "people," those doing the translation are interpreting rather than translating. It may be accurate to the intent of the authors and it may not change the meaning of the verse(s) in question, but it is still interpreting the original and in my humble little mind that opens the door to more dangerous things.

    I believe that a much more sound method of translation is to translate it as "men" and leave it to the reader to understand the meaning.
     
  20. Rippon

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    Interpretation is necessary when translating. No translation has ever been made without interpretation.

    The original manuscripts do not have the word "men" in them. The original languages were not in English.


    Would you like these kind of translations?

    Acts 4:12 : And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among adult males by which we must be saved.

    Acts 17:24 :... does not live in temples made by adult males

    Acts 17:29 :... imagination of adult males

    I could go on.
     

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