To be in English, or not to be in English? That is the KJV question.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by SpiritWalker, Feb 18, 2004.

  1. SpiritWalker

    SpiritWalker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    To be in English, or not to be in English? That is the KJV question!

    In my opinion it is really important to realize that the closer Scripture translations can come to the original writings, in the original languages, the higher our confidence level can. The King James Version is more flawed than most others because the translators did not have access to the earlier codexes like we have today.

    Not only that, the KJV is translated into another language besides English. Being in classical Elizabethan, it is no longer commonly spoken, written or understood outside of a few circles of academics and Shakespearean enthusiasts. As a result preachers of the Word have to spontaneously translate what the KJV translation says into English to be understood by those hearing it.

    It seems to me that those who fight to retain the KJV, forget that God can and does preserve His Word by having it translated into the language of the people of every nation and generation - not just to those who lived in England 400 years ago.

    Many of the "KJV only" people are rightly motivated, having zeal without knowledge, believing they are defending the historic Christian faith from "modern corruption." What they fail to realize is that they overvalue an "edition" of a book, at the expense of the clarity of the message written in it.

    Let Christians put the Word of God back into the hearts of English speaking people in a language they can read and understand! Why withhold it for fear they may corrupt it? God is perfectly capable of preserving His own written Word, and is doing so.

    Let the Word of God Be translated into English. That is the answer!

    SpiritWalker
     
  2. GrannyGumbo

    GrannyGumbo
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="/Granny.gif">

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2002
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    zeal without knowledge

    [​IMG] :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    And we should all expect to see granny spitting venom again in the guise of being sweet. But this time SHE SIGNED HER NAME!

    "Zeal without knowledge". Kewl [​IMG]

    Thanks SpiritWalker. You't hit on some important issues.

    Perhaps, if you're one of the elect, the ISSUES might be discussed instead of shots taken at you.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    ISSUE #1 - AV (whatever revision) does not use the best Greek documents.

    ISSUE #2 - AV (whatever revision) is not translated into an English people understand.

    ISSUE #3 - What about translations of the inspired Greek/Hebrew into NON-ENGLISH?

    ISSUE #4 - What about overvalue of an "edition" of a book, at the expense of the clarity of the message written in it.

    ISSUE #5 - Can God preserve His Word in other languages or in modern English?
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    You are absolutely right. I respect the KJVO's wanting to preserve the text. But the text is already here.
     
  6. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    0
    Subjective opinion.
    Some do, some don't. But all versions have difficult words and phrases, but admittedly, the KJV, due to its age, is probably the most difficult of the commonly used bibles.
    What about them? There are some excellent traditional text (the best text, in my subjective opinion :D ) translations in non-English languages.
    Any time we place anything above our love and devotion to the Lord, and our love and acceptance of our brothers and sisters in Christ, we sin.
    Of course. He has. [​IMG]
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    A preservation issue often overlooked by the KJVO, and often overlooked ON PURPOSE: the fact that God has apparently chosen NOT to have preserved the first human writings of His words. Had He done so, these discussions would have been much-more limited, if they would've ever begun at all.

    The KJVO makes much ado about the Sinaiticus ms being rescued from "death row". Did he/she ever stop to think that GOD could've been behind this? Did he/she ever consider that it could've been GOD who preserved it for so long, and caused Tischendorf to arrive at that time & place when he did?
     
  8. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    0
    If what you mean by "the best Greek documents" is what I think it is,you are talking about Sinaiticus(trash can version)and Vaticanus(Rev 17);both of those dark-age,Catholic,Egyptian mss.(and their kind) have been rejected by Christians for centuries,and are still being rejected today,including the "bibles"(200+ conflicting authorities)that come from them...

    Best Greek documents? Hardly :rolleyes:


    And just why isn't it? I have yet to encounter a person that couldn't "understand" it....


    Just as long as they are from the Graeco/Syrian MSS. of the reformation,and not from the Jesuit,dark-age,Egyptian mss.(niv,nasb,nwt,rv,rsv,esv,etc...ad nauseam)...


    What about placing the Scholarship of Alexandrian Gnostics,and Philosophers,over what God said??


    Yes indeed!!!

    Valera Bible(1602),Luther Bible,etc.......
     
  9. Alcott

    Alcott
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,456
    Likes Received:
    93
    Trying to brag on yourself, or what?
     
  10. Alcott

    Alcott
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,456
    Likes Received:
    93
    Trying some self-boasting, or what?
     
  11. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes indeed!!!

    Valera Bible(1602),Luther Bible,etc.......
    </font>[/QUOTE]Neither the Reina-Valera, nor Luther's, match the KJV in every reading. Care to explain?
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    zeal without knowledge is as
    a throughbred wihout a bridle.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Orvie

    Orvie
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2001
    Messages:
    649
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trying some self-boasting, or what? </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, where's Precepts to defend the 'wisdom' of GG? :D
     
  14. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  15. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    By being rescued from the KJBO camp, I have been thinking of some things.
    They (the KJBO) are right about one thing.
    There has been so many versions come out in the last 30-40 years. So many that it does seem strange.

    When asked why, the KJVO says $$$$.
    But we know that God is soverign.
    Maybe, just maybe, God is allowing so many versions to exist and prosper to get the Gospel out to as many as possible before Christ returns.

    After all, It can't be very long.

    So instead of complaining about all the differing versions reaching people the KJB could never reach, we should be praising God.

    Even if you're KJBO, and believe that the many versions are bringing the great apostacy, that just means that Christ is just around the corner.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  16. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Tiny, I've heard of some extreme KJVO's who actually believe that Jesus MUST return when the KJV becomes unreadable, since the KJV cannot be revised. God forbid! May it never be! :eek:
     
  17. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unreadable by whom, I wonder?
     
  18. SpiritWalker

    SpiritWalker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems to me, after analyzing much of the material published over the years in defense of the KJO cause that there is a certain fallen trait at work. For want of a better description, I will call it the “spirit of religion.” In my opinion mankind is predisposed to the "spirit of religion" in much the same way as it is to sin.

    A close study of historic civilizations will show that the more established any religion became, the more a priestly caste gained control over the emergent charms, potions, relics and holy utterances. Over time what may have begun as a happy dance around an open fire became temples of stone and marble on high places dedicated to the codified mysteries of a defined deity.

    To me, this explains in simple terms, the mutation of the Roman Catholic church into the structure it has become. Layers of priestly elite and ecclesiastical nobility jealously horde accumulations of mistakes, heresies and myths that have come to validate their very existence and define their purpose. As a consequence, their self preservation instincts demand that only the duly delegated Princes of the church define and dispense an altered version of the simple truth of the gospel found in the Scriptures.

    True to form and type, the Roman Catholic Church blocked the translation of its authorized version of the Vulgate into other languages for a millennium. Church authorities claimed that this official Latin version was directly inspired by God, inerrant in its translation from the original autographs. Being such, it could not be translated into the various vulgar and corrupted languages of the nations the church then reigned over.

    Having forbidden the Scriptures to be translated, the only remaining access to them was delivered by an increasingly ignorant clergy. As priests themselves lost the ability to either understand or accurately teach God’s precepts in the vernacular, priests ended up babbling to the flock in an irrelevant Latin liturgy, leading them in religious chants that no one understood. So the light to the world dimmed and nearly went out, replaced by empty traditions of men. The priests withheld the Word of the Lord, so they stumbled and fell, kings, priests and people alike.

    As far as I can see, the same “spirit of religion” is at work in many of the KJO leaders. In my opinion, their arguments are no more valid or noble than what the church of Rome’s once were. In fact, if we peek behind the cloak of pseudo-scholarship we will find little more than an intransigent clinging to religious ritual and traditions. To these people it seems to be more important for a congregation to chant a passage of the King James in unison than to understand what it really means.

    This idolatry of the King James version is not harmless, nor alone. The same religious tendencies that corrupted the Roman Catholic church are alive and well in the churches we all attend. There are lots of signs here and there that point to the same predisposition to reincarnate the “spirit of religion”. Some manifestations we can perhaps live with, some we can’t. Locking down the Word of God into what is quickly becoming an incomprehensible babble that no one can fully understand except duly delegated dispensers of the Word is not one of them. They that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Issue #6-the KJVO cannot tell us by whose authority he/she is KJVO and why everyone else should be.
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Spirit Walker, KJVOnlyism is based solely upon opinion, guesswork, fishing stories, imagination, and in some cases, OUTRIGHT LIES. It's nothing more than a man-made myth. You've touched upon the issue nicely!

    You've probably noticed that I, and several others on this board, have repeatedly asked the KJVOs to provide EVIDENCE that their doctrine has any validity at all, and that if they answer at all, it's an evasive answer at best, such as a politician gives when cornered. The KJVO has proposed this doctrine-let him/her *PROVE* it has any validity.
     

Share This Page

Loading...