To Calvinists, Arminians, and those in-between

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, May 27, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Born again and regeneration are terms that are oftentimes closely intertwined in use. But are they the same ?

    Is the new birth the same as regeneration ? If yes, why ? If no, why not ?

    Please provide Scriptures for your answers. I am seeking to learn, not to argue or debate, though it might sound that way to many here.

    You may quote Spurgeon, Arminius, Aquinas, Wesley, even your pastor, but let their quotes be based on Scriptures they have studied.

    Thank you all.
     
  2. swaimj

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    You want scripture that will answer this? I don't think the terms are ever used together in the same context. In fact, I don't think you'll find them both in the same book of the Bible. I'd have to use my Bible software to check but I'm at work right now. I can't think of a theological distinction between these two terms, however.
     
  3. calvin4me

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    We must also remember the word "Trinity" doesn't applear in Scripture. Hence the importance of systematic theology, I think.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    To be perfectly honest, I don't think there is a difference. I think, in my heart, that the new birth is regeneration (re-generation).

    But, maybe, somebody out there has some scripture to back up what the other guy in the other thread said. Who knows ?

    You'd be surprised at how much one doesn't really know after years of holding and reading the Bible, right ?

    I mean, it's such a gold mine of spiritual knowledge that one chapter read and re-read gives deeper and deeper information.
     
  5. Sularis

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    I kinda agree with pinoy but with a subtle difference

    Regeneration and new birth are a one time thing - but regeneration is also an ongoing thing which the new birth is not
     
  6. Skandelon

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    Born Again: anagennao {an-ag-en-nah'-o}

    1) to produce again, be born again, born anew

    2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

    Regeneration: paliggenesia {pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah}

    1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

    a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

    b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge

    c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

    d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.

    e) other uses

    1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

    2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

    3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection

    [ June 02, 2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Skandelon ]
     
  7. Skandelon

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    We are born again by the word of God and the word of God is the gospel which was preached to us.

    We are continually being regenerated or made new by that same word. "Born again" does have more of a once in a life time connotation where as "regeneration" could have more of a continuous meaning. But for the most part they seem to be innerchangable.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    Me thinks you've got conversion and regeneration mixed up, Skandelon.
     
  9. npetreley

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    Maybe someone should add "sanctification" to the list of definitions.
     
  10. calvin4me

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    npetrely- Very good point! Sanctification is the fruit of regeneration.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    Please explain why you think that and then I can defend my postion or recant.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    by Skandelon:
    Regeneration and born again are one and the same event, caused by the Holy Spirit, from above, applied to the soul dead in sin and trespasses, brought back to spiritual life by the source of life Himself.

    Conversion is a mental process involving continous teaching, learning, correcting. Conversion is effected by the gospel, by the hearing of the word, requiring a mental assent to what is being said, and a conscious turning to that teaching. It is head knowledge for the most part. A converted man may not necessarily be a regenerated man. We have church members who know all the "talk" and appear to walk the walk, but may not really be a child of God.

    Born again or regeneration is purely spiritual with no assent from the soul being regenerated, it is solely the act of God the Holy Spirit.

    A regenerated soul, while without fail will show a change in his behavior, his thinking, his talk, his personality, may not necessarily be converted to the Living God until someone gives him gospel teaching and gospel instruction.

    Romans 10:14-17

    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report

    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
     
  13. Skandelon

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    I don't disagree with this. If you'll notice in my posts that I give the lexicon definations but I simply refer to the connotation of these words in that when people hear them they may have different meanings in their minds because of the relationship of that word with other things. Notice I did say the words were "innerchangable."

    Yes, I do believe new birth/regeneration is caused by the Holy Spirit alone. You must remember that is was the Holy Spirit who brought us the gospel through which new birth is accomplished.
     
  14. Primitive Baptist

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    The terms "born again" and "regenerated" are interchangeable. NEITHER are "ongoing things," and both are accomplished by an immediate act of God WITHOUT human means or instrumentality. Apart from the new birth, or regeneration, conversion is not possible. The Word by which we have been born again is distinguished from the gospel in 1 Peter 1:25. That Word is preached BY the gospel.
     
  15. Skandelon

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    I think the NAS gives the best rendering of this verse:

    BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.
     
  16. Primitive Baptist

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    I Peter 1:25 is accurately translated in the 1611 King James Version. The NAS only paraphrases; It does not translate. :rolleyes:
     
  17. IfbReformer

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    Can you show any instance in scripture where someone was regenerated, but not converted? I agree that someone may seem converted, but not they may never have been regenerated.

    By the way, I believe born again is the begining of the regeneration process(which God starts).

    But please provide us with evidence of someone in the scriptures who was regenerated, but never converted.

    Thanks

    IFBReformer
     
  18. npetreley

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    I agree with you, but just to play the "other side", someone might mention Hebrews 6 as "proof" that someone can be regenerated and then fall away, and postulate that the person was, in fact, never truly converted. IMO, there would be many holes in that argument, but that's the only place I can think of where one could try to build the argument in the first place.
     
  19. Primitive Baptist

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    Read the Book of Hebrews, chapters three and four.
     
  20. BrotherJoe

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    Brother IBF

    YOU: Can you show any instance in scripture where someone was regenerated, but not converted...But please provide us with evidence of someone in the scriptures who was regenerated, but never converted.

    ME: Certainly!

    1)John The Baptist "and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)

    2) The thief on the cross never heard the gospel to the best of our knowledge, yet Christ proclaimed, " Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (23:43)

    3) I believe Nicodemous was regenerated yet he remained a preacher of Judaism to the best of our scriptural knowledge.

    4)Cornellious. " There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    2 A DEVOUT MAN, and ONE THAT FEARED GOD with all his house, which GAVE MUCH ALM to the people, and PRAYED TO GOD ALWAY.
    3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day AN ANGEL OF GOD COMING IN TO HIM, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
    4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, THY PRAYERS AND THINE ALMS HAVE COME UP A A MEMORIAL BEFORE GOD" (Acts 10:1-5)

    These are signs of a person that God has already regenerated. Peter hadnt even yet arrived to preach the gospel to Cornellious...that occurs at the end of the chapter. Peter declares later in that chapter, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34-35) Cornellious feared God and worked righteousness prior to the preacher arriving with the news.

    5)"For there is no respector of persons with God... 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness," (Romans 2:11,14-15)

    Obviously if these gentiles that Paul is referring to dont have the law of God it is very probably that they might not have heard about the new coventant fufillment of the law which is Christ Jesus. We as converted Christians mustn fall into the same arrogant trap as the Jews of Paul's time did and assume that because we have the gospel we are the only ones who are regenerated. The Jews of Paul's time made a similar error in assuming that because they have the law and the scriptures they alone are God's people. God regenerates mans heart soley by himself without any means or aids by man-including the gospel.

    Saved by grace,

    Brother Joe
     

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