To lie or not to lie

Abiyah --

Unruffle yer feathers, dear. My comment about Bible teachers was not about anyone on this board. We are all laypeople trying to understand. My bone to pick is with those people who put themselves in positions of authority when they really need to do some serious study of typology, hermeneutics, and Church history.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

PS According then to the last line in your post, Rahab, who is in the Hebrews Hall of Faith, is in hell. She DID lie, remember?

 

I have no feathers to ruffle! 8oD

In answer to your P.S., I used to be a major liar;
does that consign me to Hell?

 

Hypothetical situation: You have a 5-year-old girl, who is the only other person in your house. An armed burglar breaks in, and he thinks you have diamond worth $50,000, which you do not have. He beats you and ties you up to a bed post. If you attempt to scream he slugs you until you no longer try. He apparently does not know that you have tripped a silent alarm which notifies the police. Then your little girl comes into the room, wonderng what is happening. The burglar grabs the little girl and takes out a butane lighter, flicks it, and says if you do not tell him where the diamond is he will move the flame right under the girl's nose. You honestly do not have the diamond he is looking for, but you are expecting the police to arrive any time. He moves the flame toward the little girl's head. Do you lie and 'buy time' that may save her from torture or death, or do you maintain honesty and say you have no such diamond?

[ October 12, 2002, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]

 

The actual commandment says not to give false testimony against someone.

But Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life..."

He also says the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth.

My conclusion would be, then, hypothetical situations aside, that to not tell the truth is to refuse to trust God!

He's big enough to handle the truth you tell. But when you lie, it destroys at least part of your witness as to His power in your life and the world itself.

I used to lie rather than tell the truth until I was about 18 (I wouldn't have raised me for the world!). Lying is an attempt to control a situation using one's own wisdom and power.

Far better to trust God and just tell the truth. He really is omnipotent, you know!

[ October 12, 2002, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Abiyah --

So did I. And I am in a profession which has, unfortunately, developed a very BAD reputation for LIARS -- sales.

Therefore, in keeping with my Christian profession, I feel I MUST tell the truth to clients and potential customers EVEN IF IT COSTS ME A SALE.

Therefore, if a company has a product which is demonstrably better than ours, I am not going to concoct some tale (falsehood) to try to make the sale. I am going to tell them the truth and let the Lord take care of my sales and my quota for the month.

If it is an issue of MY LIFE being on the line, I will tell the truth and let God do what He will with the situation. But if someone else's life is in my hands, as the case of Rahab the harlot, then, yes, I will tell evil people any falsehood I can to protect the innocent and keep them from harm.

I would ask those who are so self-righteous about this the following question: there are situations in which Christians, feeling bound to their misunderstanding of telling the truth, told the Nazis in WWII where the Jews were hiding and the Jews were collected and sent to concentration camps.

How come their trust in God was rewarded with the death of innocent people who's only crime was that they were the wrong race.

And one more thing -- if the people in this country keep voting for liberal politicians such as Hilary Clinton, we may well face these situations in our lifetime. Don't think for a second that liberal politicians are the "nice" people they portray themselves as when it comes to Christians who are committed to Christian morality in society. They would love to see us dead, and if given the chance.....

Now...does my telling this truth about them constitute "slander" or not?

Brother Ed

 

Cynic --

You have a vivid imagination! Good grief!

I was in a similar situation. It was a month
before I was to be married (1st time). My fiance
and I were walking down a street one night near
my home, when five young men came up and
asked us where someone I had never heard of
lived. We answered that we did not know. They
threatened us if we did not tell; this did not
somehow give us the unknown information, so
we still said we did not know.

They circled my fiance, cutting me off from him,
and said that if we did not tell, they were going
to take Pat down. I got nervous, raised my voice,
and said that I honestly had no idea, I had never
heard of him before. They started beating on
Pat, teling me to be quiet and tell, or he had had
it. I went silent, praying, wondering what to do.
Then I saw that one had raised a pipe above
his head. Ignoring their demand that I be quiet,
I screamed--loudly.

At that point, a neighbor opened his window
across the street, stuck a rifle out, and yelled,
"Leave them alone, or you've had it!"

The young men scattered, leaving us to run to
Pat's car and escape.

We told nothing but truth throughout this inci-
dent, and we prayed. Yes, I believe we
escaped by the grace of our God. When the
police came, they found the young men,
searched their car, and found a gun in it.

Convert

My father was in sales for a short period of time
when I was a child. He was encouraged to lie,
too, but he refused. He was threatened with
firing for this, until his boss heard a conversation
between a customer and my father.

Apparently, this woman had been coming in,
looking at appliances, for a long time and had
never bought anything. She was a thron in their
flesh, a frustration, and a challenge.

That day, she went up to my father and asked
him about a particular stove. This stove had
been sold at one time and returned a couple
days later. They put it on "sale," but the sales
personnel were told not to say that ir had been
used. When she talked to Father about the stove,
he told her outright that it had been used a
couple days and returned for a better model.
Unknown to him at the time, his boss heard him
and was hopping-mad.

The lady responded that he was the only honest
sales person in the store, and that she would buy
the stove from him but from no one else. She
did, and he kept his job. From then on, when
she came in, she asked for him and would deal
with no one else.

 

from Catholic Convert:

First of all, before I respond to this, I would like to congratulate you on your approach to your job. I certainly wish more were like you!

Now, are you aware of ANY case in which a person told the truth about Jews because he or she trusted God?

I have never heard of one myself. Are you presuming there might have been someone who behaved with that motive? From my own experience, even in times of peace, there is hardly anyone who has enough trust in God to tell the truth about even uncomfortable things.

And, secondly, God is STILL in charge of life and death, even in the prison camps.

edit: What about having told the guards who came looking, "You are free to check for yourself."

This is not a lie. And then everything is still in God's hands.

[ October 12, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Way off topic I know.

I can't help but wonder why some of the same people who are making claims to trusting God in this area are unwilling to trust God when it comes to reproduction.

Why not skip the birth control products and trust God?

Ron

 

LOL, Amen!

With the proviso that the women stay home and nurse and be mommies. That is a birth control method established by God.

 

Who here has put on the "new man"? (Ephesians 4:24-25)

Lots of "what if" questions here. Until you face the situation, most of us will never truly know what we'd do.

Like Abiyah, I've faced a couple of situations. I've found that truth prevails. Lying to protect another usually got both of us in trouble.

And JohnV, re-look at Corrie Ten Boom. Was her lying a sin? Debateable. But did she later state that she wished she hadn't lied?

When y'all think about the situation, you keep forgetting one thing: Afterwards.

Here's a "what if": A man comes to your door, claiming to be a Jew and stating that the Nazis are looking for him. You hide him, and sure enough, there's a knock at your door. It's the Nazis; they say they're looking for a man who raped and murdered a child in the neighborhood. The description fits the man you've hidden in your house.

Who's lying: The man you've never met before, or the Nazis?

What do you do?

Situation #2: Now, I'm a pre-trib, so this is just a hypothetical. You receive a knock on your door. When you open it, several men burst into your house and round up your family. One of them puts a gun to your child's head, and says: "Denounce Christ, or I pull the trigger."

Do you lie to save your child's life? Knowing full well that you don't really mean what you're saying?

 

Don -

Situation #1 -- I KNOW what the Nazis are. I tell them no.

Situation # 2 -- I hopefully have the courage to look the man in the eyes, calmly place my hand on his and guide the gun to my head and say "Jesus is Lord".

Hopefully.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

PS Helen. I like your idea of a response. "Go ahead and search the house really then DOES leave all in the hands of God without resorting to a lie." Then I stand there and pray like crazy under my breath that God will make them leave.

 

Speaking of lying, does anyone know the two best ways to lie?
1) Tell part of the truth, then shut up.
a) Situation one: I absolutely do not believe anything a goosestepper has to say, so I tell them, "Yes, I saw a man who may or may not have been a Jew." ["Do you know where he is?"] "(Since he has hidden himself somewhere I have been careful not to observe, I could truthfully say and pass a lie detector test..) Why, no, I haven't any idea."
I have told part of the truth, then shut up.

2) Tell all the truth, but tell it in such a fashion that it sounds like a lie.
a) Situation one: "Yeah, right! I hide Jews in here all the time. There's one back in my closet right now. Sheesh! What's wrong with you clowns? I'm missing my favorite TV show."
I have told the truth but it sounds like a sarcastic lie. Oh, and in case you were wondering, both these methods work most of the time.

As to situation #2: If I remember correctly, someone threatens me and my family unless I renounce Christ? He better be completely and utterly undistractable (I have never met anyone in over 58 years who is), because if he threatens my family, I am going to smile like a fool and while I am tellin him Jesus is my Savior, do the best "once off" I can think of. If his eyes so much as flicker, he's mine. My children are all grown, and know how I feel, so as soon as I move, any who are there will also move. It may be a massacre, but his jugular will be in my hand, and then we'll see about that theological experiment I mentioned on another thread.
I will finally see if I get to heaven before he gets to the Lake of Fire!

PP

 

Those are pretty much the answers I expected.

And when the "goosesteppers" went away, you turned around to find the man holding a knife to your throat. He tied you up, and made you watch while he killed your wife and child. You didn't weep for long, because you were next.

When you get through laughing at me, do a web search, and see if a similar situation has actually occurred.

Reverse situation #2, especially those of you with smaller children: The individual holds a gun to your head, and tells your children to renounce Christ, or he'll pull the trigger.

(and yes, I've already talked to my kids about each of these situations)

In the case of hiding a (known) Jew in my house, I offer you a third alternative: Storm out the door. Right past the guys asking you questions. Down the stairs, and then down to the corner store. Don't say a word. Don't run; just walk. Running will make them suspicious. Your task is not to raise suspicion, but to show contempt. They'll either follow you, or arrest you, or just rough you up. In any case, you've taken their focus off of what they were doing at your door, and you've let them know that you will not cooperate. Next time, they'll already know they won't get any help from you, and they'll either look for easier game or they'll just go ahead and barge through when you open the door.

Hey, it works on Jehovah's Witnesses!

[ October 13, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Two situations come to my mind. One, during the 2nd World War, my wife's family, who have a Jewish background, changed their family name from Neumann to Newman, in case the Nazis ever made it on English shores....Was this a lie?

Two. My father-in-law suffers with Alzheimers. He hasn't a clue what is going on. He has his mum, who died 40 years ago, as a visitor at the dinner table. He thiks that some buildings once house old workmates, but took their names down when they retired. He gets all worked up when his wife goes to spend some time at the senior's outreach office. We say things that are not true about where she is, who others are and what is actually happening.

We are avoiding confrontation and keeping him from getting upset. We don't believe in lying. We never thought of this as lying, but we had given it some consideration.

There are those who will condemn, and those who will accuse, but you know, I am really not concerned. Just try living with a bloke who spends have the night trying to turn out the street lamp by turning every switch in the house. Try living 24 hours with one who thinks he can do the impossible. Try living with one who asks his wife every few minutes where his wife is.

Now, if someone asked me if I was an engineer and I said I was, I would be lying to deceive for my own gain. That would be despicable. Are we deceiving this man? Are we gaining from our lie? Yes, we are gaining peace and contentment, and bringing a smile to his face.

Cheers, and I pray you never have to face this situation.

Jim

[ October 13, 2002, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

It's hard, Jim. And I think we all do the best we can in any circumstances like that. Monday-morning quarterbacking is a favorite sport of many...

Sometimes you just cope and know the Lord understands. Alzheimer's is such a different thing -- with people living in a world that does not exist. Keeping them calm and as happy as possible become a major goal.

God bless your family and give you wisdom in dealing with the situation. And a break now and then, too!

You are not giving any false testimony against any neighbor and you ARE loving this person to an even greater degree than you are loving yourself. I'm not real sure that 'joining' a person in their unescapable fantasy world for a bit is the same as lying at all. It is simply making them feel not quite so lonely in the land where they are.

[ October 13, 2002, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Don,

I believe we were talking about Nazis? If my choice is to believe our "Jew" or to believe men who are probably going to haul him off to some "concentration" camp, I will take a chance on the Jew every time.

If I turn around and he has the temerity to put a knife to my throat, he better be completely and utterly undistractable...but you already know the rest of that answe PP

 

Brian, well done. Keep the mediation going.

PP--Seeing your age from one of your previous posts, I assume you were involved in Viet Nam? Some form of military service?

And I didn't say the individual was a Jew; I said it was a man you had never met before, and claimed to be a Jew.

[ October 14, 2002, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

The Bible tell us that Abraham deceived both Abimelech and Pharoah of Egypt. Yes Sarah was his half-sister but Abraham hid the fact that she was his wife from these two men. He did this out of fear for his own life but notice that even though Abraham deceived them and they both were honestly innocent God judged them both. This should make people stop and think about how God views certain things.

God allowed deception between Jacob and Esau and yes Jacob was deceived in return God allowed this because he wanted Jacob to be the receiver of the birthright and the blessing not Esau.

David deceived the Philistines and made like he was mad when he was not to save his own life.

Yet in other circumstances God judged lying. Look at Ananias and Sapphira.