Featured To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

DHK · Jul 25, 2013

Bob, I have already gone through Moody's post line by line and debunked the whole thing. I am not going to do the same thing every time you copy and paste it. You are a dishonest man for misrepresenting Moody's belief.
He puts a caveat at the end of his sermon to distance himself from all SDA beliefs. That should be good enough in itself to tell you he does not keep the Sabbath.

First, Moody himself works on "the Sabbath." Obviously he does not keep it. He works on what he defines as "the Sabbath," or "Sunday."

Second, "the Sabbath," is "Sunday," not Saturday. He has totally redefined it. What he says is the Sabbath is not what you say is the Sabbath. Thus your misrepresentation is dishonest.

Third, "the rest" he speaks of is simple worship on the Sabbath. It is not total cessation of work. He talks of this when he speaks of hospitals and other emergency outlets. He doesn't cease from cooking and preparing food, and all the other things that the Jews did. He did not keep the Sabbath in such a legalistic way as defined in the OT. He defined that "rest" in a completely different way then you do.

Fourth, the only rest that he was speaking of was that the men should not go to their regular places of employment. That is the only restriction he put on the sabbath. That is the rest. The second part of that rest was positive. It was set apart so that they could attend church. Thus the double application: one day in seven to rest from work, and one day in seven to worship the Lord. That was keeping the Sabbath, and it was on Sunday. That is not the way you define it.
And furthermore, Moody himself broke it. He worked on the Sabbath. That was his busiest day--his hardest day of work.

To say that Moody kept the Sabbath is wrong. He didn't.
To say that Moody kept the Sabbath is a lie. It is misrepresenting Moody simply because you don't know his vocabulary.

Now, I thought you were sola scriptura. I was wrong.
You seem to have changed. You have become sola Moody.
What happened?

Yeshua1 · Jul 26, 2013

DHK said: ↑

Bob, I have already gone through Moody's post line by line and debunked the whole thing. I am not going to do the same thing every time you copy and paste it. You are a dishonest man for misrepresenting Moody's belief.
He puts a caveat at the end of his sermon to distance himself from all SDA beliefs. That should be good enough in itself to tell you he does not keep the Sabbath.

First, Moody himself works on "the Sabbath." Obviously he does not keep it. He works on what he defines as "the Sabbath," or "Sunday."

Second, "the Sabbath," is "Sunday," not Saturday. He has totally redefined it. What he says is the Sabbath is not what you say is the Sabbath. Thus your misrepresentation is dishonest.

Third, "the rest" he speaks of is simple worship on the Sabbath. It is not total cessation of work. He talks of this when he speaks of hospitals and other emergency outlets. He doesn't cease from cooking and preparing food, and all the other things that the Jews did. He did not keep the Sabbath in such a legalistic way as defined in the OT. He defined that "rest" in a completely different way then you do.

Fourth, the only rest that he was speaking of was that the men should not go to their regular places of employment. That is the only restriction he put on the sabbath. That is the rest. The second part of that rest was positive. It was set apart so that they could attend church. Thus the double application: one day in seven to rest from work, and one day in seven to worship the Lord. That was keeping the Sabbath, and it was on Sunday. That is not the way you define it.
And furthermore, Moody himself broke it. He worked on the Sabbath. That was his busiest day--his hardest day of work.

To say that Moody kept the Sabbath is wrong. He didn't.
To say that Moody kept the Sabbath is a lie. It is misrepresenting Moody simply because you don't know his vocabulary.

Now, I thought you were sola scriptura. I was wrong.
You seem to have changed. You have become sola Moody.
What happened?
Click to expand...

the SDA cannot quote Jesus and His Apostles regarding this topic, so forced to ,isuse Baptists statements on this, and Ellen White teachings!

BobRyan · Jul 26, 2013

Yeshua1 said: ↑

the SDA cannot quote Jesus and His Apostles regarding this topic, !
Click to expand...

in your war against the Bible AND even your own Baptist documents such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" on this topic - do you insist on ignore the "actual Bible texts" that we find there - as if the "Bible does not exist" when it is inconvenient for your traditions?

=================

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

THE LAW OF GOD

19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
(1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
(2) Gen 2:16-17
(3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12

19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4

19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
(1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
(2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
(3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16

19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
(1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
(2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10

19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].3
(1) Mat 19:16-22; Rom 2:14-15; 3:19-20; 6:14; 7:6; 8:3; 1Ti 1:8-11; Rom 13:8-10; 1Co 7:19 with Gal 5:6; 6:15; Eph 4:25-6:4; Jas 2:11-12
(2) Jas 2:10-11
(3) Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; 1Co 9:21; Jas 2:8

19.6 Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works to be justified or condemned by it,1 yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty, and directs and binds them to walk accordingly.2
It also exposes the sinful defilement of their natures, hearts and lives, and as they use it to examine themselves, they come to greater conviction of sin, humiliation for sin, and hatred against sin. They also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience [to the law].3
Similarly, it is of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruption in that it forbids sin. The threatening of the law serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what troubles they may expect in this life because of their sins, even though they are freed from the curse and undiminished rigors of the law.4
The promises of the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept,5 although these blessings are not due to them through the law as a covenant of works.6 If someone does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages the former and deters from the latter, that is not evidence of one's being under the law and not under grace.7
(1) Act 13:39; Rom 6:14; 8:1; 10:4; Gal 2:16; 4:4-5
(2) Rom 7:12,22,25; Psa 119:4-6; 1Co 7:19
(3) Rom 3:20; 7:7,9,14,24; 8:3; Jas 1:23-25
(4) Jas 2:11; Psa 119:101,104,128
(5) Eph 6:2-3; Psa 37:11; Mat 5:6; Psa 19:11
(6) Luk 17:10
(7) See the book of Proverbs; Mat 3:7; Luk 13:3,5; Act 2:40; Heb 11:26; 1Pe 3:8-13
19.7 These uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but are entirely in line with it, for the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the human will to do freely and cheerfully what the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.1
(1) Gal 3:21; Jer 31:33; Eze 36:27; Rom 8:4; Tit 2:14

=============================

in your war against the Bible AND your own Baptist documents - you are missing a lot of NT texts from Paul, words of Christ and writings of the Apostles on these points where you choose your own traditions over the Bible.

Surely you knew the objective unbiased readers would "notice".

in Christ,

Bob

DHK · Jul 26, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

Surely you knew the objective unbiased readers would "notice".

in Christ,

Bob
Click to expand...

What they notice is that Bob has abandoned the Bible in favor of Creeds.
A sad state indeed.

BobRyan · Jul 26, 2013

DHK said: ↑

Bob, I have already gone through Moody's post line by line and debunked the whole thing.
Click to expand...

Not true - all you have done is claim that Moody bent the Sabbath commandment so that after the cross he could apply it to "week day 1" instead of the actual 7th day as God's Word demands.

But in making that one - and only point - you never answer the fact that Moody specifically singles out your view of the Sabbath abolished - and condemns it.

In making your one and only point - you never answer the fact that Moody specifically debunks your own claim that the Sabbath was not given to all mankind in Eden.

In making your one and only point - you never answer the fact that Moody specifically debunks your own claim that the Sabbath does not apply to all mankind - or just applies to Jews.

Were we simply supposed to ignore the fact that you side stepped all of that?

Your statement " You are a dishonest man for misrepresenting Moody's belief. " may be your response to seeing your own wild claims in the mirror.

First, Moody himself works on "the Sabbath." Obviously he does not keep it. He works on what he defines as "the Sabbath," or "Sunday."

Second, "the Sabbath," is "Sunday," not Saturday. He has totally redefined it. What he says is the Sabbath is not what you say is the Sabbath. Thus your misrepresentation is dishonest.
Click to expand...

Your wild claims seem to have no end since I begin my discussion with my often repeated objection to Moody's claim of bending the Sabbath to point to week-day-1 after the cross. And so your statement "Thus your misrepresentation is dishonest." finds application in your own wild claims.

Third, "the rest" he speaks of is simple worship on the Sabbath. It is not total cessation of work. He talks of this when he speaks of hospitals and other emergency outlets.
Click to expand...

Here you simply show your lack of Bible study on the subject. Christ before the Cross - under full obligation to every single jot and title of His own Law - did works of healing, mercy. Only the apostate Jews accused him of being in violation of the Law of God by His doing the very thing the law provided for.

Christ pointed this out to them repeatedly. If you studied the Bible on this subject instead of being at war with it on this subject - you would already know this.

He doesn't cease from cooking and preparing food,
Click to expand...

The "preparation day" according to both NT and OT is the day to do as much as possible so as not to violate God's Day "the Holy day of the Lord" - but it does not mean that food cannot be warmed up etc.

Fourth, the only rest that he was speaking of was that the men should not go to their regular places of employment. That is the only restriction he put on the sabbath. That is the rest. The second part of that rest was positive. It was set apart so that they could attend church. Thus the double application: ?
Click to expand...

You simply repeat your "one point" that moody bent the Sabbath to point to week-day-1 after the cross and then argue that his restrictions for Sabbath observance do not match what you imagine the Bible to teach.

I think that is the limit of your response to the unanswered points I listed above.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 26, 2013

DHK said: ↑

What they notice is that Bob has abandoned the Bible in favor of Creeds.
A sad state indeed.
Click to expand...

Its the Baptist Creed - not the "Adventist Confession of Faith" - obviously. You are shooting your own argument in the foot by insisting that this problem in your argument be held up - because obviously I am not in any way obligated to a "Baptist Confession of Faith" in any way. My objectivity in seeing that they gets some Bible points right - goes far beyond your "deny all " solution when it comes to objectivity.

But since I am not at war with the Word of God on the subject of "The Holy day of the Lord" - I am free to admit to those places when even the Baptist Confession of Faith - gets a few points right.

It is not my fault that they find truth in the very texts that you object to.

in Christ,

Bob

The Biblicist · Jul 26, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

in your war against the Bible AND even your own Baptist documents such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" on this topic - do you insist on ignore the "actual Bible texts" that we find there - as if the "Bible does not exist" when it is inconvenient for your traditions?

=================

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

THE LAW OF GOD

19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
(1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15[/U
(2) Gen 2:16-17]
(3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12
Click to expand...

Bob, it is impossible to write the fourth commandment upon the heart or conscience of men except by SUMMARY PRINCIPLE. This is easy to prove. Just go to a tribe in the Amazon and ask anyone to recite the fourth commandment? They can't. The only thing that is written on the heart is the SUMMARY PRINCIPLE which is LOVE God and man. That is the extent of the Law written on the heart. One of the verses footnoted is Romans 13:8-10 as well which describe the law in summary principle = love.

There are many Baptist Confessions in history that I disagree with on several points. Baptists are fiercely independent and that is why there are several different kinds of Baptists.

So your method divide and conquer is simply lame because Baptists as a group are not tied to any particular confession and there is history in America of Baptists adopting the 1689 Baptist Confession but revising and rejecting certain parts. So again, your line of reasoning is vain and really without any substance.

DHK · Jul 26, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

Its the Baptist Creed - not the "Adventist Confession of Faith"
Click to expand...

NO THIS IS NOT THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH!

IT IS A BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH.

Until you learn the above it is hardly worth proceeding any further. I have gone through Bible College, Seminary, and have taught in Bible College and have never taken the time to read any of the Baptist Confessions of Faith.
They aren't important to me. They do not represent what I believe.

Until you get off this hobby horse there can be no intelligent discussion about the Sabbath. You are misinformed.
The Confession has as much authority as Yeshua's or Biblicists's opinion.
It comes from a man.

BobRyan · Jul 26, 2013

I know how much you are married to not including the word "THE" in the highlighted title of the document - so please note my care in not doing what you just did.

===================== my quote

Its the Baptist Creed - not the "Adventist Confession of Faith" - obviously. You are shooting your own argument in the foot by insisting that this problem in your argument be held up - because obviously I am not in any way obligated to a "Baptist Confession of Faith" in any way. My objectivity in seeing that they gets some Bible points right - goes far beyond your "deny all " solution when it comes to objectivity.

But since I am not at war with the Word of God on the subject of "The Holy day of the Lord" - I am free to admit to those places when even the Baptist Confession of Faith - gets a few points right.

It is not my fault that they find truth in the very texts that you object to.

============================== end quote.

And of course - as we all know - you have yet to find even ONE OTHER "Baptist Confession of Faith" document actually going by that title.

(Or possibly "we all know" except Targus.)

DHK · Jul 26, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

I know how much you are married to not including the word "THE" in the highlighted title of the document - so please note my care in not doing what you just did.

===================== my quote

Its the Baptist Creed - not the "Adventist Confession of Faith" - obviously. You are shooting your own argument in the foot by insisting that this problem in your argument be held up - because obviously I am not in any way obligated to a "Baptist Confession of Faith" in any way. My objectivity in seeing that they gets some Bible points right - goes far beyond your "deny all " solution when it comes to objectivity.

But since I am not at war with the Word of God on the subject of "The Holy day of the Lord" - I am free to admit to those places when even the Baptist Confession of Faith - gets a few points right.

It is not my fault that they find truth in the very texts that you object to.

============================== end quote.

And of course - as we all know - you have yet to find even ONE OTHER "Baptist Confession of Faith" document actually going by that title.

(Or possibly "we all know" except Targus.)
Click to expand...

No, you are not free to do so. Our authority is the Word of God.
If you are not willing to have a debate on that basis, then we will close the thread.
Fair enough.

BobRyan · Jul 26, 2013

The Biblicist said: ↑

Bob, it is impossible to write the fourth commandment upon the heart or conscience of men except by SUMMARY PRINCIPLE.
Click to expand...

You seem to know a lot about what God cannot do.

The first key principle in the 4th commandment is that "GOD ALONE" can obligate mankind by making a law. setting something aside , making it holy. Placing the force of law on it.

Those who actually read the Bible - past Genesis 2 - quickly discover that God did just that with a very specific day of the week.

The second key principle is to choose to obey the very DETAILS that God gives in HIS command - vs "just make stuff up".

Even your own Baptist Confession of Faith admits that it is a specific day of the week as given by God in Genesis.

In Genesis 3 - Cain tries his hand at "ignoring details" and simply "making stuff up" that sounds good regarding what is to be brought as the sacrifice to God.

This is the heart of the matter.

And this key point is not missed the way you might imagine. Here the RCC leverages this oversight by many protestant groups - pointing out that they are running over the WORD of God while they claim to honor it.

=============================

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
======================================

Your argument is that the moral principle written on the heart cannot include the moral principle that man is obligated by the Word of God - to the very "DETAILS" that the Word of God specifies - does not hold up.

Once man reads the first two pages of the Bible - man begins to be morally bound and obligated.

"Have no other God's before Me" does not stop pagans from polytheism. But had they read the first two pages of the Bible - with the moral imperative to accept what is written in the Word of God - they would be confronted with that commandment as well.

in Christ,

Bob

The Biblicist · Jul 26, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

You seem to know a lot about what God cannot do.
Click to expand...

Ok, find any culture today that has never been exposed to the Bible that anyone in that culture can quote the fourth commandment or can tell you about it. However, the principle of love is present to some extent.

If you cannot understand or grasp this simple truth it is hopeless to even discuss this with you.

Eliyahu · Jul 27, 2013

Moody was not a Sabbath-keeper but may be Sunday worshipper.
I think God didn't expect the Gentiles keep the Sabbath strictly as ordered in OT.
However, the change of the worship day from Sabbath to Sunday involved Idolatry because the major force of the change came from Sun god worship, by Constantine, Sylvester, Laodicean Council etc.

Worship day was not changed during the time while the NT was written.
1. Lord's day in Rev 1:10 meant Sabbath Day ( Saturday)
Polycarp the disciple of John testifies that they kept the Sabbath. Jesus is the Lord of Sabbath, the Sabbath was originally Sabbath of Jehovah, therefore Sabbath was Lord's Day.

2. 1 Cor 16:2 - Paul requested the special donation for Jerusalem should be made by saving the money at HOME on the first day of the week, he didn't ask them to come to the church on Sundays.

3. Acts 20:7 the first day of the week, evening meant the Saturday night, next day, on Sunday, Paul departed for Journey. Bread-taking was done very often in the Early Church ( Acts 2:46). In acts 20:7, they might have celebrated the early bread-taking in the morning, then in the evening, for the slaves who couldn't participate in the morning service, they had another bread-taking plus Habdala which was a house-warming party at a private house.

4. 1 Cor 11:25-27 tell us they gathered together to commemorate the Death of Jesus Christ, not the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

5. We find nowhere in the bible that the Early Church gathered on Sundays to remember the Resurrection of Jesus, but His Death.

6. Women and Disciples kept the Sabbath until the Death of Jesus ( Luke 23:56). Suddenly how and when did they change the Sabbath to another day?

7. Colossians 2:16 never meant the abolishment of Sabbath, but being sure about it, a clear and good faith on Sabbath.

Apparently the epistles of Ignatius were manipulated. RCC increased his epistles from 7 to 15, then Sunday Worship was interpolated.

Justin Martyr was a Greek philosopher and didn't know about Hebrew language and about OT and was almost ex-communicated in Turkey region. He could find some fellowship in Rome where there were some diversity in the pagan culture. Messianic Jews consider him as a kind of Apostate.

Constantine decreed the Sunday Holiday, Pope Sylvester endorsed it, Laodicean Council declared Anathema in 363 AD, which means that there were so many Sabbath-keepers by that time.
Pope Sylvester changed the name of days of the week implying the pagan gods, from
first day, second day, third day, to Sun, Moon, and other planets names which were attached with pagan gods.

Later English names of the week started to have Sun, MOon, Tiu's Day ( Tiu was the war-god), Odin's Day, Thor's Day, Freya's Day(Freya was like Venus), Saturn's Day.

In French they are more closer to such myth as Mardi, Mercredi, Jeudi, Vendredi.

The Bible indicates that the days of the week was simply the first day, second day, third day as we read John 2:1 when Jesus performed His first miracle at the wedding, as Jews usually had wedding on the Third Day ( Tuesday) following the Genesis 1.

So, as long as we can, I believe we have to eliminate the paganism from our church activities even though we cannot do that in the social life.

Worship day was never changed during the era while Bible was written.

Jesus never abolished the Moral Law, but accomplished the Temple Sacrifice Law. He himself was the Temple and completed the Great Sacrifice at the Cross, and therefore we have to do no sacrifice any more.

But we have to keep the Moral Law by the help of the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ ( Romans 8:2)

BobRyan · Jul 27, 2013

Eliyahu said: ↑

Moody was not a Sabbath-keeper but may be Sunday worshipper.
I think God didn't expect the Gentiles keep the Sabbath strictly as ordered in OT.
However, the change of the worship day from Sabbath to Sunday involved Idolatry because the major force of the change came from Sun god worship, by Constantine, Sylvester, Laodicean Council etc.
Click to expand...

Moody knows enough to claim that the Sabbath commandment started in Eden and is just as important for all mankind as it was then.

But Moody fails in one key point - he ignores Christ's teaching in Mark 7:6-13 saying that man's traditions cannot be allowed to bend-break-abolish one of the Commandments of God. In this case - bending it to point to a day God never specified and AWAY from the day God specifically specified.

In Isaiah 56 the gentiles are blessed for keeping the Sabbath.

In Isaiah 66 "all mankind" is to keep the Sabbath for all of eternity in the New Earth.

In Mark 2:27 the "Sabbath was made for mankind"

In Gen 2:3 - the Sabbath is made. And all mankind spends their first full day of life - observing it.

But as you point out - for most gentiles in the OT the Sabbath was lost - as even paganism becomes the religion of gentiles in OT and NT until they are converted to Bible believers.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 27, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

You seem to know a lot about what God cannot do.

The first key principle in the 4th commandment is that "GOD ALONE" can obligate mankind by making a law. setting something aside , making it holy. Placing the force of law on it.

Those who actually read the Bible - past Genesis 2 - quickly discover that God did just that with a very specific day of the week.

The second key principle is to choose to obey the very DETAILS that God gives in HIS command - vs "just make stuff up".

Even your own Baptist Confession of Faith admits that it is a specific day of the week as given by God in Genesis.

In Genesis 3 - Cain tries his hand at "ignoring details" and simply "making stuff up" that sounds good regarding what is to be brought as the sacrifice to God.

This is the heart of the matter.

And this key point is not missed the way you might imagine. Here the RCC leverages this oversight by many protestant groups - pointing out that they are running over the WORD of God while they claim to honor it.

=============================

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
======================================

Your argument is that the moral principle written on the heart cannot include the moral principle that man is obligated by the Word of God - to the very "DETAILS" that the Word of God specifies - does not hold up.

Once man reads the first two pages of the Bible - man begins to be morally bound and obligated.

"Have no other God's before Me" does not stop pagans from polytheism. But had they read the first two pages of the Bible - with the moral imperative to accept what is written in the Word of God - they would be confronted with that commandment as well.
Click to expand...

The Biblicist said: ↑

Ok, find any culture today that has never been exposed to the Bible that anyone in that culture can quote the fourth commandment or can tell you about it.
Click to expand...

As I just pointed out above - cultures that have no access to the Bible are typically pagan, polytheist - worshiping many Gods - violating the first 2 commandments without hesitation.

Thus is exposed the fatally flawed argument that "pretends" that if the pagans are doing it - it most not be immoral or a violation of God's moral law.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I think we both know that.

Your pretending "not to notice" is not addressing the issue in your flawed argument.

Calling me names or simply being dismissive of points you cannot answer -- is not the compelling response you may have at first imagined it to be.

in Christ,

Bob

DHK · Jul 27, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

Moody knows enough to claim that the Sabbath commandment started in Eden and is just as important for all mankind as it was then.
Bob
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Moody was simply a man who stated his opinions in print, and that is all.
We all have our opinions. Some are Biblical and some are not.

What about yours?
Do you keep the Sabbath? If so how?
Is it according to the Bible,
according to EGW?
or according to tradition?

Describe what you do in order to keep holy the Sabbath Day:

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

BobRyan · Jul 27, 2013

The Bible Sabbath is kept from evening to evening Lev 23.

Evening and morning "were the 6th day" Gen 1 with mankind newly created and evening and morning making the definition of the day - from sunset to sunset.

Gen 2:3 the 4th commandment give to mankind.

The various documents listed in agreement that this day given to mankind in Gen 2:3 is the Sabbath commandment - and the commandment is still binding on Christians.
These documents explicitly state that the civil and ceremonial laws are not in force today but the Sabbath commandment is. I agree with them on that Bible detail.

And you cannot blame this on Ellen White - those documents and those in agreement with them are not followers of Ellen White.

Hard as that is for some to believe.

in Christ,

Bob

DHK · Jul 27, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

The Bible Sabbath is kept from evening to evening Lev 23.

Evening and morning "were the 6th day" Gen 1 with mankind newly created and evening and morning making the definition of the day - from sunset to sunset.

Gen 2:3 the 4th commandment give to mankind.

The various documents listed in agreement that this day given to mankind in Gen 2:3 is the Sabbath commandment - and the commandment is still binding on Christians.
These documents explicitly state that the civil and ceremonial laws are not in force today but the Sabbath commandment is. I agree with them on that Bible detail.

And you cannot blame this on Ellen White - those documents and those in agreement with them are not followers of Ellen White.

Hard as that is for some to believe.

in Christ,

Bob
Click to expand...

I am not blaming anyone for anything Bob. I am finding out information.
We both know when the Jewish Sabbath was, and that SDA's also worship on Saturday's.
You say you keep the Sabbath. But what does that mean, other than go to church? What does "keeping the sabbath mean" to you?
What do you do in order "to keep the sabbath"?
How do you keep the sabbath?
The Sabbath in the OT was to be kept very strictly adhering to every little detail in life. They lived under a theocracy.
But how do you keep the sabbath.

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2013

I am not blaming anyone for anything Bob. I am finding out information.
We both know when the Jewish Sabbath was, and that SDA's also worship on Saturday's.
You say you keep the Sabbath. But what does that mean, other than go to church? What does "keeping the sabbath mean" to you?
Click to expand...

It is an actual day that begins at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday - the 7th day of the week.

Isaiah 58:13 says that it is a day to be kept holy to God - not doing your own pleasure or speaking your own word.

Isaiah 66:23 says it is a day for all mankind to come before God and worship.

Ex 20:8-11 says it is not a day for work.

And so - that is how I keep it.

Friday is the preparation day - even in the Gospels and so that is the day to set things in order - cook meals ahead of time - etc.

I think you already knew that - but I could be mistaken.

in Christ,

Bob

DHK · Jul 28, 2013

BobRyan said: ↑

It is an actual day that begins at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday - the 7th day of the week.

Isaiah 58:13 says that it is a day to be kept holy to God - not doing your own pleasure or speaking your own word.

Isaiah 66:23 says it is a day for all mankind to come before God and worship.

Ex 20:8-11 says it is not a day for work.

And so - that is how I keep it.

Friday is the preparation day - even in the Gospels and so that is the day to set things in order - cook meals ahead of time - etc.

I think you already knew that - but I could be mistaken.

in Christ,

Bob
Click to expand...

But how rigidly do you keep it. You mentioned one thing I was wondering about. You cook your meals ahead of time. Does that include all drinks? cold and hot? whether juice or coffee and tea?
How does fuel enter into the equation?
If the Jews were not allowed to gather sticks on the Sabbath day what is the equivalent of that in our day?

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