To Seventh Day Adventists

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by pinoybaptist, Aug 2, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    You say you believe that a person is saved by grace and grace alone, and works has nothing at all to add or take away from that salvation.

    Situation:

    Okay, I am saved by grace because one of you SDA's witnessed to me. However:
    • I refuse to accept that Saturday is the Sabbath and refuse to worship on that day;
    • I refuse to be baptized into the SDA church or in any church ;
    • I refuse to give up my smoking because I do not think it is a sin;
    • I drink occassionally and do not think I am sinning when I do that;
    • I eat anything I like, and also drink sodas, coffee, chocolate, etc.,;
    • I go to parties, love to dance, dress anyway I want, know very little scripture, but I do read my Bible and pray;

      So. When I die, do I go straight to heaven ? When judgment day comes around, am I going to be judged ?
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Good questions pb! Excellent OP.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Yes! You will be judged my friend.

    2Cor 5 FOR WE MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    And IF you have truly accepted Christ as your savior AND are born-again and are "By the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8 -- "THEN are you the children of God".

    And IF that is the case THEN as Daniel 7 says - when that future judgment happens "JUDGMENT is passed IN FAVOR of the saints"...

    And AS Paul says in Rom 2:13-16 of the gentiles who live in utter darkness but some of whom are open to the Holy Spirit and yield to his leading, themselves "hungering and thirsting" for truth - then on "the day when According to My Gospel God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus" Rom 8:16 you will stand.

    But that is a big "IF" -- if in fact your main sense of pride is in the degree to which you turn from obedience to what you find in the Word of God. For Christ HIMSELF said "NOT everyone who SAYS LORD LORD will enter the kingdom of heaven..." Matt 7.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    You do err, Bob Ryan. The judgment seat of Christ is not for both believers and unbelievers. It is not the Great White Throne of Revelation 20.

    And for what, and to what end will I be judged ?

    In other words, what you are saying is that having Christ as my savior AND being born again must have in addition good works BEFORE one can be called a child of God. Is that right ?

    Are you referring to Daniel 7:24 ?
    "
    Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."


    And to Daniel 7:27 ?

    "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions F56 shall serve and obey him."

    Strange, but, I do not see a prerequisite as you seem to be implying. A prerequisite of a good obedient life in order to be among the saints. So, it appears that you are saying that IF I do good works in addition to the salvation that I have been given 'by grace', then, I am assured of a place in the kingdom, and if I do not maintain these good works, then, I am as in trouble as those who have not been saved because I am not saved. Is that what you are saying ?



    Romans 2:13-16. Uhmm, not the hearers of the Law, but, the doers of the Law.

    And may I ask you, Bob Ryan, do you suppose you are able to justify yourself, and be a perfect doer of the Law, obeying it without the slightest infraction, apart and outside of Him who perfectly obeyed the Law, and without whom no one is declared righteous and justified before God ?

    Are you requiring, as a prerequisite for salvation, as a proof of salvation if you will, that the man who claims salvation by grace, also, as the Jews required, be 'circumcised' and 'observe all the sabbaths of the Jews', as the Law of Moses requires ?

    Duh ? Do you mean 'turn in obedience TO' or is it as you said, 'turn FROM obedience to'.

    True, and notice, these people whom He rejected were doing .... GOOD WORKS !

    But, you still have not answered all questions.

    What if I, a sinner who turned to Christ, thanks to the witnessing by you, Bob Ryan, a Seventh Day Adventist, and is now therefore, per your explanation, saved by grace, what if I refused baptism into your church, or any church ?

    What if I refused to believe that the proper Sabbath is Saturday, and insist that Sunday is the Lord's Day of the New Testament ?

    What if I refused to give up my tobacco habit, or drank occassionally, or if I went to movies, and went to parties and dances, and seldom prayed and read the Bible, though I do so just the same.

    Am I still saved by grace ? Am I assured of heaven ? Does the blood of Christ avail for me ?
    If, as you said, I will be judged, judged to what and for what ?
     
  6. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso
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    Hello pinoybaptist. When you die, you will most certainly not go to heaven. You will be asleep in the grave, until Christ returns, and then what happens will be up to him. You will either be raised from the dead and go to heaven with Christ and all the saved from the beginning, or you will remain in the grave and be a part of the second resurrection, and second death. You do not want to take part in either of the latter.

    If you read your bible and pray, then you will not be ignorant of the scriptures. That point is moot. Observe the following.


    Matt 10:38-39 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


    Matt 16:24-25 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


    Luke 9:23-24 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


    1 Cor 1:18 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


    Gal 6:14-15 14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


    Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



    Heb 12:1-8 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
    4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
    5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    You wish to trifle over the intricacies of justification, and sanctification. The question is, would you be a bastard, or would you be a son of God? Let each person diligently study the scriptures, and learn for themselves , what it means to take up the cross and follow the Lord Jesus Christ. For He is the author, and finisher of the faith. Do you want to be like God’s Son, or not? If so, doesn’t that mean making some changes in your life? Unless of course, you think that you are already like the son of God. If not, then like the rest of us, God has some work to do in your life. May the Lord bless.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Hello, Kamoroso.

    So, are you answering the questions ? Are you saying that if I do not become a member of the SDA, and worship on the Saturday instead of Sunday, I was never a recipient of grace ? That God will not save me even if I plead for mercy if I do not worhip on a Sabbath ?

    That salvation in order to be truly effective for me, and in order that Christ's blood be truly effective for me, I MUST perform good works ?

    That my justification and sanctification depends on my works and not on God and Christ's finished work ? I need to help God out ?

    Here is the mainline Christian belief, Kamoroso:

    1. Christ is the END of the law;
    2. Christ is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith;
    3. Christ's blood is SUFFICIENT for all the sinner's needs;
    4. Christ ALONE is able to fulfill the Law and did fulfill ALL the law;
    5. Salvation is by grace thru faith NOT of works;
    6. The saint is PRESERVED in Christ and therefore cannot fall away and lose his salvation;
    7. Baptism IS NOT a prerequisite to salvation;
    8. Church membership is NOT a prerequisite for salvation;
    9. At death, the saint goes IMMEDIATELY into the presence of Christ and dwells with Him in heaven until He comes back to earth again. Therefore, the believer's soul DOES NOT sleep.
    10. That the Christian is victorious IN THIS LIFE only as He abides in Christ, but his eternal destiny is secure in Christ.

    Perhaps not verbatim.

    Now, how does this square with SDA theology.

    I will come right out and say it:

    Do you believe that works and a good life is not a PREREQUISITE of salvation, and that once saved and if truly saved, the saint cannot be lost again ?
     
  8. BobRyan

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    #1. Did you think I WROTE Romans 8??? I did not.
    #2. Are you asking this about the text in Romans 8:13-15? -- Please quote it and show what you question.

    No. I refer to vs 21 and 22 as follows


    21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
    22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.



    If you followed my quote above - I 'Show' in 2Cor 5 and in Daniel 7 that the saints are to be judged. You ASK "will I be judged?"

    I answer "yes".

    I then show the Word of God in BOTH OT and NT stating that the saints will be judged.

    This is the easy part.

    Are you referring to Romans 8 or Matt 7 ? Or is it Romans 2:13-16? Which one?

    No need. Justification is an act of God Himself.

    When Paul speaks of being Justified - it is God in Romans 2 - that does it. Please read the text carefully.

    Is that your interpretation of Romans 2:13-16??

    How do you get that?

    Turn "from" - I was simply making note of your starting list and your implied idea that you think the word of God speaks negatively about all those things - but you glory in turning "from" it.

    Or ... what made you pick "that list"? Something you read?

    So... He was "wrong"?? Is that your summation of the Matt 7 text?


    Many saints do that very thing.

    I will make it easy for you...
    I would say that although I have no way of knowing how genuine your initial repentance was -you need to stay in prayer and Bible study and let the Lord continue to lead you away from sin and toward the light of the Gospel.

    As Paul states "No temptation has overtaken you but such is common to man and God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able - but will with the temptation provide the way of escape".

    In answer to your question -- "judged about what" - notice what PAUL says in 2Cor 5 Judged to "Give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be GOOD or EVIL".

    Are you aware of what the Bible says about the "judgment for Evil deeds" Pinoybaptist?

    Never the less -- Take courage brother.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Eric B

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    Now I have debated Bob extensively on this, here (And Keith would occasionally come in with his comments), but in all fairness, it is highly unfair to question SDA's on the Sabbath as if it contradicts salvation by faith. And the the PB's are the LAST ones to be doing this, with all the rules (biblical and unbiblical) they have! We could turn the questions right back on you.
    If we use instruments in worship, or [gasp] those dreaded contemporary styles, are we saved?
    If keeping the Sabbath in itself is adding works of the Law and contradicting faith alone, then must one keep Sunday to be saved? (at least the seventh day was clearly listed as one of the commandments!)
    And all those other things you mentioned-- Tobacco, drinking, gambling, movies, parties and dances-- haven't the PB's been the strictest against those? I've even heard them say suprise parties are wrong, because it is "lying" (pretending nothing is going on). And don't they say all "joking" is wrong?
    Of course, you may say "well, I don't say they are not saved, but they are wrong and disobedient". Well that is all the SDA's say regarding the Sabbath. I may disagree that it is still binding, but I have seen where many who preach against them assume they are adding "works", while they themselves do the same things and worse with other practices.
     
  10. Dewey Maggard

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    I do not wish to debate all the above- However, I do have one serious question for all of you who think of all past born again Christians are in heaven- That is simply not yet true. Then answer why the bible speaks in no uncertain terms of a resurrection. Think on this. There would be no need for a resurrection if everyone who has gone on before are all up in heaven. Sure there are texts where people get that idea- yet We have God's word that Christ is the resurrection. Then if there be no resurrection- then Christ would have died in vain. No my friends-- there are no saints in heave at this time. They all sleep until that last trump shall wake them and we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye. I know-- Even theologians have been teaching for centuries that Enoch is in Heaven- that God took him.. There are other texts that have many confused- Read the 11th Chapter of Hebrews over and over again until you believe what Paul is telling you. He includes Enoch in first 5 verses of that chapter-among all those whom he said "they all died" I am not going to quote scripture to you- I am simply asking you to read it all over again. Revelation 4th makes in know that it was a vision that was seen concerning the 4 and twenty elders- It was a future event - Not yet happened. Also The mount of Transfiguration- Christ told Peter and John- This is a vision you have seen. So they did not really see the real Moses-or Elijah, yet it was a vision. In one of the Gospels- it plainly says it was a vision. SO my friends, in view of these remarks, it is plain to see that there is no one in heaven at this moment. Signed by your Brother with a really radical view when compared with the vast majority of Christianity. Dewey Just re-read Heb 11th chapter.
     
  11. Dewey Maggard

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    Then one other point. Someone is sure to say "well what about Elijah. My Friends, haven't you ever seen a Twister or Tornado-or Cyclone- Sure, God lifted him up in what appeared to be a chariot of fire. The school of prophets with Elisha wanted to go and look for him as they underestood he had not gone to the heaven where God dwells. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter almost ten years after this incident that Elijah wrote to a King of Judah" Elijah was the prophet to Israel-remember- not to the Tribes of Judah yet there is that disturbing letter that told this king what would befall him shortly because he had not walked in the way of his fathers. enough-- It is all recorded- but Whever the confusion has been is there were two kings at the same time with the same name and they were cousins.Maybe it isn't fair to say all these things without given Scriptural sources. If you are curious enough- then perhaps you will search it out. Sincerely Dewey
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    EricB said:
    And suppose I tell you that if I refuse to join your denomination and worship on the day your denomination teaches then I am most probably not truly born again, will you agree it does not contradict salvation by faith ?

    Primitive Baptists will not question anybody's salvation. As a matter of fact, many of you 'other Christians' have ridiculed us for our belief that there are many in this present, past and future world who could wake up in heaven and who have never even heard the gospel or the Name of Jesus.

    Neither am I questioning Bob Ryan's salvation or the salvation of other SDA's. I am questioning their doctrines, since doctrines are important if one is to properly accord God the worship and tribute rightfully due to Him in this plane we call time, and because the Bible itself says for us to hold fast to the form of sound doctrine.

    And that is why we have what you deridingly call 'rules', which, by the way we never impose on anyone who are not of our own people.

    You want to use bongo drums in your worship service, or maybe castanets, or maybe laugh and yell and jump up and down ? Go ahead, do it. It's none of our business, but, if somebody asks us, then we will speak our mind.

    Again, you are way out of context. Please read my questions. The question is not: are you strict with regards to these things ? The question is: am I still saved ? Am I born again ? Will they consider one who does these things a truly born again child of God ? And have you ever been to a PB church, or have known for a reasonable period of time folks who are with the PB ? We do not consider any of those things I mentioned sin, except for gambling which is clearly taught against by the Bible.

    Bob Ryan has still avoided the main issue of all my question. Here it is again. According to their doctrines and beliefs, since he says they believe that salvation is by grace thru faith, not of works , if I refuse to live according to how they think a truly born again child of God should live, am I a truly born again child of God, or am I judged unfit for the kingdom here on earth and in heaven because of my works ?

    He likes to say about a Christian being judged,'that's easy', as if to point out how stupid I am, but, I agree with him, the same scriptures he will show me is the same scriptures I will show to anyone.

    The question, again, is why will believers be judged ? What is the end of judgment ?

    He quoted Romans 8 and 'by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh'. What do you understand by these, EricB ? What does he understand by these ? The deeds of the flesh, what are they ? Are they the usual fleshly temptations we are likely to yield to, seeing as the old nature is still here ? Or is the term 'deeds of the flesh' an indirect term for justification by deeds of the law ?

    Is somebody saved in accordance with the way espoused by Bob Ryan and his church, that is, accept Christ as your personal savior, since one is not totally depraved so as not to be able to do so, (he claims SDA's are Arminians), is that salvation eternal and secure, regardless of what happens to the professing Christian's life here on earth ?

    It is his doctrine I am putting to question here, not his salvation.
     
  13. UMP

    UMP
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    • Obviously you've never seen me dance. [​IMG]
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Bob Ryan wrote:
    Duh ? Huh ? Are you saying that is what I said ? Or did you just put in quotes what you said, or think I said ?

    This is what I said:
    I hope you are not misrepresenting me here, Bob.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    Oh, sorry. I forgot to ask.

    You talk as if you truly and absolutely believe Christ and all that He claims to be, and all that the Bible says He is.

    Now, do you agree with Ellen G. White's commentary that Jesus Christ never ceased to be God when He became man, and although Christ and the Father are One, Christ is not God Almighty ?
     
  16. John Gilmore

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    I would very much appreciate the SDA view on the following theses:

    1. Objectively speaking, without any reference to an individual sinner's attitude toward Christ's sacrifice, purely on the basis of God's verdict, every sinner, whether he knows it or not, whether he believes it or not, has received the status of a saint.
    2. After Christ's intervention and through Christ's intervention, God regards all sinners as guilt-free saints.
    3. When God reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, He individually pronounced forgiveness to each individual sinner whether that sinner ever comes to faith or not.
    4. At the time of the resurrection of Christ, God looked down in hell and declared Judas, the people destroyed in the flood, and all the ungodly, innocent, not guilty, and forgiven of all sin and gave unto them the status of saints.
     
  17. Eric B

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    Pinoy, you're totally misunderstanding my stance and my whole point.
    You keep talking about "join your denomination and worship on the day your denomination teaches" and questioning of salvation, and imposing things. Who here has said anything like that?
    You are the one assuming that the SDA's say one must be apart of their group and worship on the Sabbath to be saved, apparently because of a widespread belief that keeping the seventh day is necessarily going back to the Law, and then you see them denouncing Sunday as false and disobedient. But I have studied their doctrine enough to know that they do not believe Sunday keepers are lost, and neither those who live unhealthily. Bob has denied that. "Will they consider one who does these things a truly born again child of God?" The answer is YES. "Disobedient", to be sure, but yes stil saved.

    So I then point to some of the practices of your denomination, which you believe are the pure original Christianity, and people often denounce other practices such as music as being unscriptural. You then retort that your group does not deny anyone's salvation for those things, and that you don't "impose" anything on outsiders, and that if I want to do such and such in church, then it is our business; but then that was precisely my point! If Primitives can have these teachings and criticize others without actually denying their salvation or imposing them, then why can't you believe that the SDA's can do the same?
    It seems to me, that it is because people see the Sabbath as too restrictive a rule, and thus indelibly tied to the Law (legalism) and thus denying salvation by faith, and rejected in the NT. But then I mentioned PB "rules" that to me are at best the same type of thing, and at worst, do not even have the status of being apart of the Law like the Sabbath. You think it is the right practice, but agree to disagee with others who do not practice it. The SDA's are the same way.
    You may say that some statements by Bob and especially Keith sound like they are denying salvation to all others, or lead to that if taken to their logical conclusion, and I can agree with that, but that is the way such disagreements often sound. PB statements against others' practices, including music and gambling also could lead one to believe that. In the latter case, since that is clearly condemned in scripture as you noted, then one could truly question someone for going against a clear teaching of scripture. I have argued with Bob and the other lawkeepers, that they are accusing the rest of Christendom of, essentially, "living in sin/disobedience" by rejecting one of the Ten Commandments. I compared it to someone openly living in adultery, or idolatry, or lying, stealing or killing (If we break one, we break them all). That is not spoken well of in the New Testament. If it is sin, then it IS "deeds of the flesh", because sin comes from our nature, called "the flesh", whether it is a "fleshy tempatation", or a willful violation of the Law. (whether we are "justified" by it or not) He responded just as he did here that no, he does still accept us as saved, though disobedient. I understand that and accept it as his genuine feelings, but my point was to try to show him where his logic may lead. But you seem to be outright accusing him of denying salvation. This I am pointing out as unfair, because once again, if all the rest of Christendom is really disobedient on the issues PB's speak out on, then your logic too is just like theirs. They say the Sunday will be the Mark of the Beast, when the Antichrist rises, and the issue is made clear. (not now). So likewise, Primitives and other conservative Baptists and Reformed types often say the same things about the stuff they criticize in the contemporary Church, and how this or that will be the final apostasy.

    And then people think that saying people can be saved without beliving in Christ challenges the very heart of the Gospel, and "clear scripture", as both Calvinists and Arminians have shown you in that forum. I don't hear them denying your salvation, though it may sound like it when they stress belief in salvation through "no other name" than Christ to be an essential "fundamental", and interpret the PB position as denying it.
    And you and a couple of the other PB's have certainly come close to questioning the salvation of Arminians (in general, careful not to mention names there) for their "stubbornness", or whatever, for denying your ideas of unconditional election, or all the stuff about "the weak god who does not actually save", "saving ones self by the work of turning from their sin", (both of which, to me preclude salvation, if the person really believes like that) "rejecting clear scripture", etc.
    That's why I spoke of being "strict" on things. "strictness" on an issue in others is perceived as "am I still saved" (in their view if I do not follow them)?, and often we do say things in a way that puts people on such a defensive (especially in heated discussions); so you accuse the SDA's of questioning your salvation, but then someone can accuse you of the same things, even though you deny it.
    Well, I guess there are many different degrees of separatism in the Primitive Baptist movement. I have seen some, both online and elsewhere, condemn those other things as sin. (And I have never known the SDA's to be against dancing and movies. Perhaps earlier on, but they like other have eased up on those types of rules. PB's are the ones more likely to still hold on to them).
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Not something I have seen in scripture. In every case scripture reserves the term for church members. (USually living ones - btw)

    So... no universalism here.

    No. That is Justification and justification is by faith - not by birhdate. You must believe in Christ as your savior to be justified.

    So... no universalism here.

    Nope.

    "IF we confess our sins He IS faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleans us from all unrighteousness" -- 1John 1:9

    So... no universalism here.

    Nope.

    "For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and then comes judgment" ...

    So no redemption from the lake of fire - if you have not chosen salvation is this life - you are "toast" ...

    No universalism here "again".

    I guess you see a pattern here eh?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    hmmm... how about that!


    You seem to be pretty confused here. Jesus is the "God man" He is fully God and fully man. God the Father was pleased that God the Son chose (of His own free will of course) to "Empty Himself" and take on the nature of mankind.

    It is odd that you would be confused on this point.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Bob Ryan wrote:
    Nope. I said I was "saving you the trouble" since you seemed to be on a mission of seeing how far awy you could get from the walk of Paul and of Christ "without actually being lost".

    I simply drew a line FURTHER out than you were drawing "so it would be clear" that although I could not judge the initial conversion or salvation of that person - I would still encourage them to "Press on to know the Lord" and continue their growth by ongoing Bible study ( ... maybe reading 1Cor 6 for example)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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