Tongues as Evidence

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Don, Feb 3, 2002.

  1. Don

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    From atestring: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Pentecostals that know Jesus and Baptist that know Jesus, and have recieved Him into their hearts, are Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
    Let's love one another for love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that knoweth not God knoweth not love for God is love.
    In Christ There is neither bond nor free,
    Jew nor Greek Male or female.
    Is irt safe to say that there is neither Baptist nor Pentecostal. But we are all members of his body placed in his church severlally as it pleases God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd normally just agree and move on; but something needs to be pointed out.

    If someone states that if I haven't been baptized, I'm not saved, then I have a biblical requirement to tell that person the error of his/her doctrine.

    Same goes with this subject: If someone states that I must speak in tongues in order to show that I've been filled with the Holy Ghost, then I have a biblical requirement to tell that person they are in error.

    What it boils down to is people implying that if we don't speak in the tongue of angels, then we haven't been filled with the Holy Ghost; and ultimately, they're implying that those that don't speak in tongues aren't saved.

    That's the biblical problem here. No one HAS to speak in tongues to be filled with the Holy Ghost, and no one HAS to speak in tongues to be saved. And no one HAS to "prove" their salvation, through speaking in tongues or other methods, to anyone else.

    Filling of the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues two different things? I see people admitting that; but they just happen to be the same people that put your salvation into question if you haven't spoken in tongues.

    Other than that, I agree with atestring 100%. [​IMG]
     
  2. atestring

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    I have never in my life told anyone that if thy did not speak in tongues that they were not saved. I never will!!!
    We are saved when we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead.(Romans 10:9&10)
    I also believe that we are to turn from sin and be baptized. that is how we are saved.

    The 120 in Acts 2 were already saved before they spoke in tongues.
    If Jesus had returned the day before The day of Pentecost I am sure "Ole Peter" would have gone up to meet Jesus in the air.
     
  3. just-want-peace

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    The Third View Of Tongues by K. Neill Foster

    This book sorta puts this whole tongues question into perspective!

    As noted in this book, too many times the EXPERIENCE is the desired goal, not worship. When this takes place, satan can have a field day with the ensuing disagreements.

    I've never experienced this "spiritual manifestation", and really don't expect to since I see no benefit from it. If you do/have, then fine; I have no quarrel with your experiences. My only point is that if it's not from God, then where is it from?

    Also, since this manifestation is supposedly coming from the Holy Spirit, does it point to, and glorify Jesus? If you cannot nswer an unequivocal "YES", then there are serious questions to be answered before you place much stock in this experience.

    Paul states that there should be NO speaking in tongues in the assembly IF there are no interpreters, as this would just lead to chaos. Paul also stated that he spoke in tongues, but he placed VERY LITTLE emphasis on the speaking; to him it was a language from him to God; not for public consumption.

    So; do I believe in tongues? Really don't know since I've neither experienced it nor observed it except on tele-evangelism. (What I've seen there makes me question the validity of the "gift"; will tell about that one if anybody is interested!) I don't totally reject the possibility, but as pointed out in the aforementioned book, there seems to be an aweful lot of counterfeits out there! Therefore I reserve making any dogmatic conclusions!

    Just remember, God is not the author of confusion, & if nobody can make any sense of the "tongues" being spoken, ----??????
     
  4. Don

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    My apologies, atestring; I didn't mean to implicate you in my statements, but I made them ambiguous enough that I did so. Please forgive me.

    All I was really attempting to do was show that while I agree with you, I'm still duty-bound to try to correct what I know to be incorrect teachings.
     
  5. MEE

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  6. Lorelei

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    Don, hope you don't mind, but I also had one last comment to make, or rather question to answer from the other thread.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
    Lorelei, I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm saying. Maybe someone else can explain to you the difference between the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and "The Gift of Tongues."

    You might try making an appointment with one of the local UPC ministers and see if he may be able to help.

    BTW, how long have you studied this sbuject? Just curious if it is new to you.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    MEE,

    I have been studying this intently for over 3 years now.

    I might ask you why you think I need to make an appointment with the UPC? I know what they believe and I don't find it grounded in the Word of God. Have you tested what they believed according to the scriptures?

    Do you realize that even Paul was examined to see if what he preached was scriptural?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Acts 17:11
    Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Paul didn't seem to mind at all. In fact, those who examined his teachings were called "Noble". They received his teachings with eagerness, yet they still made sure that what he said was true. If I can't find my answers in the scriptures then I don't need to look further.

    I have gone to the UPC website, I have had conversations with leaders from an Apostolic church. I have read and examined pamphlets and compared them to the scriptures and have found them to not be true. That is all that is required of me. If it's not in the Word of God, then I don't need to make an appointment at any church. If it's not in the Word of God, then it is not true. That is the same criteria the Bereans used to examine Paul's teachings and they are the same ones I will use.

    I won't ask you to seek a Baptist pastor to explain this to you, I will ask you to read the Bible thoroughly. Read the entire chapter of Acts and notice how many times tongues are actually mentioned. Take note of how many times someone was "converted" and how many times it says anything at all about tongues or "evidence of the Holy Spirit". Read the book of 1 Corinthians carefully examining chapters 12-14. Never does any verse differentiate between different types of tongues. That is a doctrinal error of UPC churches. It has been fabricated to fit thier mold of what they want to believe is truth.

    How do I know this? Because I study the scriptures daily to see if it is Truth and have found it not to be so.

    Unfortunatly many people will listen to those teaching false doctrines. The Corinthians put up with it easily enough. That is why Paul had to write to them and teach them the error of their ways.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Corinthians 11:4
    For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    He warned us also that false teachers will appear to be good. If one isn't grounded in the Word, if one doesn't know what the Word of God says, then they can be easily led astray. So beware that you don't follow after those who are preaching a different gospel. As Paul warned us:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Corinthians 11:13
    For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
    14
    And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
    15
    It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    ~Lorelei

    [ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
     
  7. just-want-peace

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Since I have never read the book, does it mention if Foster has ever had the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Don't recall offhand, but I think he did. I'll try to find the book & let you know. I have so many lying around it may take awhile to find it, but I'll do my best!

    :D

    [ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: just-want-peace ]
     
  8. MEE

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by MEE:
    Lorelei, I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm saying. Maybe someone else can explain to you the difference between the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and "The Gift of Tongues."
    You might try making an appointment with one of the local UPC ministers and see if he may be able to help.

    BTW, how long have you studied this sbuject? Just curious if it is new to you.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    MEE,

    I have been studying this intently for over 3 years now.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Lorelei:
    I might ask you why you think I need to make an appointment with the UPC? I know what they believe and I don't find it grounded in the Word of God. Have you tested what they believed according to the scriptures?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Lorelei, if you have been studying for three years, I can see that you are interested.

    I didn't mean for you to talk to a UPC minister about their whole doctrine, just about the subject of the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and how it is different from the "Gift of tongues."

    BTW, yes I have tested what the Bible says about the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and "The gift of tongues." Also, I have found it to line up with the Word of God.

    Lorelei, sometimes it just takes time to get things in order. Remember, Paul said..."and *FORBID* not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.

    MEE
     
  9. ONENESS

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    L, why dont you go here.http://www.upci.ws/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2

    When you get there sign up for a SN just like you did here and start a new topic on the subject that we are discussing. It is the UPC discussion board and I would like to see what they have to say to you and what you have to say to them about the topic.

    I hope you would take the time to do this. I know Mee and My self maynot have some of the answers and maybe someone else can explain it in a way where we have failed. Its not a thing for me to admit that I dont have all the answers, but I really hope you will do this.

    Pickettman
     
  10. tulpje

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    Speaking in toungues was a tool for the apostles to use as they were spreading the Gospel to unknown languages. The toungues they were speakining were, indeed, real languages. The speaking of toungues and other Spiritual gifts ceased with the apostles. After the apostles, there was no longer a need for them.

    Studies have shown that the babblings of the toungues spoken in modern churches are not real languages at all. Therefore, the question is: if these babblings are not coming from God, where are they coming from? Satan could very well be using them for confusion in the church. The spontaneous healings are either from the power of prayer or from demons.
     
  11. Lorelei

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:

    BTW, yes I have tested what the Bible says about the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and "The gift of tongues." Also, I have found it to line up with the Word of God.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Then why is it so difficult for you to show me how?

    ONENESS,

    I will try to get to that board, I will be curious as to what they have to say as well. I have never gotten a satisfactory answer to my questions. Just remember that I have a new baby at home and my time is limited.

    I know I don't always have all the answers either, but I do know that the Bible does. Let us not forget that.

    ~Lorelei
     
  12. ONENESS

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The spontaneous healings are either from the power of prayer or from demons.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well all I have to say to that is this.

    A kingdom devided against it self cannot stand.

    I dont know how much you have studied up on it but check out Matt 12.

    [ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]
     
  13. MEE

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by MEE:

    BTW, yes I have tested what the Bible says about the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" and "The gift of tongues." Also, I have found it to line up with the Word of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lorelei writes:
    Then why is it so difficult for you to show me how?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I don't think it has been difficult on my part Lorelei. It seems to me that you are the one who hasn't seen the answer.....as of yet. [​IMG] Keep studying and praying...and God will reveal the knowledge that you seek.

    MEE
     
  14. Bro. Curtis

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:


    Well all I have to say to that is this.

    A kingdom devided against it self cannot stand.

    I dont know how much you have studied up on it but check out Matt 12.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It is the people who babble in the unscriptual, unknown, unneeded tongues that need the educating. You are right with the house divided thing, but I haven't read a post yet that will support the modern babbling that goes on in these "Churches". And the ones that could get hurt are the ones who don't rightly divide the scriptures, who will put human experience over the promises written to us by God.

    [ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]
     
  15. MEE

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:


    It is the people who babble in the unscriptual, unknown, unneeded tongues that need the educating. You are right with the house divided thing, but I haven't read a post yet that will support the modern babbling that goes on in these "Churches". And the ones that could get hurt are the ones who don't rightly divide the scriptures, who will put human experience over the promises written to us by God.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    THE PROMISE: Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to *speak with other tongues,* as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    THE PROMISE: Acts 2:16-17) But *THIS IS THAT* which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of *MY SPIRIT* upon all flesh:.......

    Acts 2:39) For the *PROMISE* is unto yu, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    (I believe He is still calling.)

    Isaiah 28:11-12) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they *WOULD NOT HEAR.*

    Romans 8:5-8) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be *SPIRITUALLY MINDED* is life and peace.
    7) Because the *CARNEL MIND* is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    The above is for the ones that call tongues babbling, unscriptual, and unneeded that need the education.

    MEE
     
  16. Don

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    I've been debating with myself as to whether it's worth entering back into this discussion.

    It's pretty clear both sides know exactly what they believe on the subject, and believe wholeheartedly that they have the spirit of understanding on the subject.

    MEE, I have only one question for you, that I asked before, and which wasn't forthrightly answered: I KNOW that I've been filled with the Holy Spirit, and I KNOW that the Spirit has worked not only on me, but through me. The evidence is the miracles that God's worked in my life, and in the lives of those He's touched through me.

    Yet I've never spoken in tongues.

    What is your honest opinion of that? And please, don't be afraid to be completely honest; I have no intention of getting upset about the matter, and I promise you--just like God, I take my promises very, very seriously (just ask my kids)--I will not come back with "yeah, well, you stink" or anything like that.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Bro. Curtis

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    THE PROMISE: Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to *speak with other tongues,* as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    THE PROMISE: Acts 2:16-17) But *THIS IS THAT* which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of *MY SPIRIT* upon all flesh:.......

    Acts 2:39) For the *PROMISE* is unto yu, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    (I believe He is still calling.)

    Isaiah 28:11-12) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they *WOULD NOT HEAR.*

    Romans 8:5-8) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be *SPIRITUALLY MINDED* is life and peace.
    7) Because the *CARNEL MIND* is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    The above is for the ones that call tongues babbling, unscriptual, and unneeded that need the education.

    MEE
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am familiar with these verses, and they fall very short of supporting your theory. What they tell me is the Holy Spirit moved upon these men, gave them the tongues, so they could go forth and preach the Gospel. What is going on in these churches has nothing to do with spreading the Gospel. I doubt it has anything to do with Christianity. Read 1Corinthians 14:6-16.

    I have been filled with the Holy Spirit, and I have witnessed the Holy Spirit so thick in our Church it was hard to breathe. And not one unknown tongue. Quiet tears, prayer, but no tongues.
     
  18. ONENESS

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    L and Don, I am so sorry about what was said on the other board. I dont see it as a "Ball of wax" So please keep comeing and posting your questions, b/c I too would like to see what they have to say.

    God bless
     
  19. MEE

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:


    I am familiar with these verses, and they fall very short of supporting your theory. What they tell me is the Holy Spirit moved upon these men, gave them the tongues, so they could go forth and preach the Gospel. What is going on in these churches has nothing to do with spreading the Gospel. I doubt it has anything to do with Christianity. Read 1Corinthians 14:6-16.

    I have been filled with the Holy Spirit, and I have witnessed the Holy Spirit so thick in our Church it was hard to breathe. And not one unknown tongue. Quiet tears, prayer, but no tongues.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Theory??? I think not! What you think, Mr. Curtis, doesn't count. It's plain to see that you do not know anything about speaking in tongues. 1 Cor. 14 is talking about, "The gift of tongues," not the baptism of the Holy Ghost. People do have the tendency of getting the use of the two operations mixed up.

    If you can feel Him in your church, just think what would happen if you would let Him into your heart! [​IMG]

    Really, I agree people do feel the Spirit of God, but the problem is that they won't let Him inside of the temple that He is to dwell, out of tradition.

    As the old example goes, you can fill a glass of water half full and yes it will have water in it, but when it over flows you can say it has been filled. The same goes for the baptism of the Holy Ghost. When you are filled with His Spirit one will speak in another tongue. (over flow) This is the evidence that you have been filled with His Spirit.

    Acts 2:4.....and they were all filled!

    MEE
     
  20. Bro. Curtis

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    You are right. What I think does not count. Goes the same for you. For you to tell me I have never been filled, or baptized, or whatever you want to call it is a lie. To insinuate that you have a better relationship with God, the Holy Spirit, than anyone else, because we haven't been able to "speak in tongues" is insulting.

    Like I said, the gift of tongues was given so the Gospel could be spread. Not so some Charismatics could brag about how much better they are than anybody else.

    Keep your tongues, I'll keep my simple gift of salvation. God's promise of heaven is more than good enough for me.
     

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