Torturing in Self Defense

And not all waterboarding is the same...

But why quibble over details?

 

I don't know what was revealed Steaver. Maybe there was 3 maybe 3 hundred, maybe 3 thousand. What does it matter how many people were waterboarded if Christians will accept this as a legit way of interrogating prisoners today what will they accept tomorrow?

This was always a crime in the past so what's changed to make it acceptable today? The act itself or our attitudes about how we treat others?

You know just because the government and media say something is okay doesn't always make it so. Just because a law is passed making something legal doesn't make it just or right it just makes it easier for us to give more power to an already overgrown power hungry beast that was never meant to have that kind of power in the first place.

But,

Let's say for the sake of argument there were only three revealed, how many were there that wasn't? A bigger question how many people are being waterboarded or worse after they are "renditioned" off to another country to avoid our laws?

The biggest questions are what will we accept as "just" next? And how much more power do we grant the state which already has enough power and "laws" to make "terrorists" of us all just by pointing it's figer and accusing us of being so?

 

The questions which arises from this statement is; how much are we a participant in this? are we just picking at random those countries who are willing to incarcerate these prisoners... or choosing with deliberation and fore knowledge regarding the severity of their placement? are we participating in their rendition and to what extent? advisory to forces used or permission? determining the point that redition is terminated? do we provide witnesses to if not participating in rendition? are we acquainted with the severity of treatment or possibility of termination of the detainees' life? to what extent will they be justly tried and how will evidence be determined? Perhaps the answers to these and other questions are more serious than the treatment of terrorists combatants in our own custody! The answer to these questions also implicates the possibility of secretly transporting our own citizens via kidnapping, to other countries where they can be dealt with harshly without the protection of our law and justice.

I'm inclined to see the point which Poncho makes: How much of this discussion is to desensitize us to accept more brutal practices in rendition? If we find some level where we think we can in good conscience accept such practices..... is there an absolute point where we could know that that which is justified crosses the line and becomes lawless and without justice or justification?

In this respect..... I don't trust the laws of fallen man to begin to set the points of absolute nor justice. God has given us just 10 very simple absolute laws.... easy to know, easy to keep..... were it not for the rebellion in our fallen and unregenerate state. To those 10 laws, we have raised up rulership from those made as weak as we, to make and enforce laws, and have allowed them to make laws to permit that which God said was not permitted, and to defeat those things which God commanded us to do.

It's not that unjust treatment of a foe today may persuade the foe to treat us unjustly tomorrow..... because we have no control over what an enemy choses to do either today or tomorrow..... but the things we allow to be done today because it serves our purpose against the 'foe', may prove the justification for use against us tomorrow.

 

Too many people get hung up on credibility imho Steaver. And from what I've seen people only want that facts that fit neatly into their own little paradigms anyway. What's credible for one is nutso to another and vice versa.

Besides neither one of us know the real numbers it could very well be hundreds or thousands we just don't know for sure. The government lies and the corporate media sticks to it. If one really wants the facts they have to dig and when one does do the digging and presents the facts most of the time they're called crazy for not taking the government and corporate media at their word.

So, credibility is overrated and I couldn't care less if people find me credible or not. Getting my point across is more important to me than what others think about me.

 

That's why our founders gave us a republican form of government (one nation under God) and not a democracy (mob rule). In our republic God's laws were to be our guiding principles not the whims of the majority.

 

Three suspects were waterboarded according to CIA director Michael Hayden. Obviously if you start with the point of view that the CIA is lying, then you won’t believe him, but there is no credible evidence to prove otherwise.

Congress had an opportunity to outlaw waterboarding but declined, so those who say it is illegal are just giving their opinion.

I don’t know of anyone who approves of torture. The debate is whether or not WB is in fact torture, and those members of Congress who’ve been trying to score political points on the issue when they in fact approved it at the time, are the worst kind of hypocrites.

 

I find Hayden's credibility questionable the man obvisously can't even read else wise he'd have known the words "probable cause" are in the fourth amendment. Why should anyone listen to this guy?

Congress has no credibility. And it ignores the people's will playing up to multinationalists and internatonalists instead. That includes the private Federal Reserve and Wall Street who for all intents and purposes owns the government of the United States.

The mass media has zero credibility because it has so many conflicts of interest it would be a full time job just to figure it all out. But it's a pretty safe bet imo that the same folks sitting in media boardrooms also sit in military contractors boardrooms and the boardrooms of the new "security Industrrial Complex".

Why would anyone listen to them?

I find very little credibility in anything the congress and their corporate masters have to say anymore. Too many closed door meetings and too many policies being passed to transfer our wealth as a nation to a handful of global parasites who we're expected to listen to as if they have a corner on the credibility market along with all the other markets.

So no I don't believe Hayden. I don't believe 5% of what 99% of them say so when I see debates about things like this I can only assume that it's just part of the conditioning process we're all forced to go through to get us to accept more and more insanity as normal.

 

Romans 12:17 "Never pay back evil for evil to anyone..." Torture is evil. Christians are commanded by Almighty God not to engage in evil acts.

12:18 "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men..."

War or no war, Christians are commanded by Almighty God to be at peace with all men, whether they are at peace with us or not.

12:19 "Never take your own revenge, beloved......"

No matter what anyone does to our country, our friends, or our family, as Christians we are commanded by Almighty God to "never" take our own revenge.

12:20 "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink...."

As Christians, we are commanded by Almighty God to show compassion and mercy to our enemies, whether we think they are going to harm us in the future or not.

12:21 "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

As Christians, we are commanded to keep ourselves free from evil, but to overcome evil with good.

I Tim. 1:16 "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life"

The Apostle Paul, under inspiration of Holy Spirit, has revealed to us that Jesus Christ showed mercy to him (a murderer of Christians) as a demonstration of perfect patience that is to be practiced by future Christians.

As Christians, therefore, we are commanded by Almighty God to practice the "perfect patience" demonstrated by our Lord Jesus Christ, with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul, and even terrorists like Osama Bin hidin.

I hope that helps you, brother.

peace to youraying:

 

If I do not find you to be credible I will ever believe what you are saying so you will never get your point across no matter what you say.

It is better to stick to the truth or qualify your statements with "in my opinion" or "it is my belief" rather than to come across as a storyteller.

 

I believe that YES, a Christian has to go to war, whether it is a physical war or a spiritual war. II Timothy 2:3 (KJV): "Thou shalt endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ."

To say that a Christian is not justified in fighting a war would mean that our nation was never founded upon Christian principles. It would mean that our forefathers were nothing more than rebels. What about protecting the ones you love from harm? Are we not to defend our loved ones (or other innocent people) from being harmed?

Part of being a Christian is standing up for yourself, standing up for others, & most of all, standing up for Jesus.

 

I see torture and self-defense as two different subjects, though both can cause pain and suffering.

To "torture" someone, they have to be under your control. They have already been subdued and are unable to fight back in any effective way.

Concerning self-defense, there a couple of things I am certain of and there are a couple of things I haven't decided yet.

I am certain, beyond any doubt, that if I am being persecuted for the cause of Christ in the world, I am commanded not to fight back, but to pray for those who are persecuting me. If someone else is being persecuted for the cause of Christ in the world, I am commanded not to fight back, but to pray for that person.

As a Christian, I am commanded to not support any policy or activity that is contrary to the teachings of Christ.

On the other hand, as a father and husband, I believe (though with somewhat less certainty) that I am justified (perhaps even required), to the best of my ability, to protect my family from intruders and robbers and other evil persons who try to prey upon them, using the least amount of force necessary to protect them from harm. That same principle applies to my neighbors or any other person I may come into contact with.

Again, I am somewhat less certain of this position and haven't yet fully studied God's Word on the issue.

In any event, I wouldn't discount prayer in any circumstance.

peace to youraying:

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion I reckon. I don't expect people to find me credible. I don't expect people to look much further than the front page of the paper or hear anything but what the politicians, "experts" and talking heads tell them at 6 o'clock.

I do expect people to stay within the left vs right paradigm and never venture outside of it to see if what I or others are saying is true. I expect people to try and discredit myself and others by picking out little bits of this and little bits of that, that I or others may get wrong and say..."lookie there! He's wrong about that so he's wrong about everything else."

That's what I expect and so far that's what I get. So, I'm not really worried if you find me credible or not. The information gets posted. You either believe it or don't. Doesn't make any difference to me if I make a difference here or not because I know I've already made a difference out in the real world where it counts. How about you all? Have you woke anybody up today? I have.

 

I was watching Hannity last night & he played a segment of Attorney General Holder, trying to answer why he thinks waterboarding is torture. A congressman or senator asked him about our soldiers being trained by being waterboarded, why is it not considered to torture to them. All he could do was studder & stammer about that inconsistency.