Total Depravity

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Feb 4, 2003.

  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    It all comes back to Total Depravity! The reason Arminians and Calvinists cannot agree is because they have two totally different ideas regarding the nature of mankind. In my opinion, we need to reall focus on Total Depravity. If we cannot go further than Total Depravity, there is no point going any further. I heard a Calvinist preacher on the radio the other day, and he said that Christians can discuss biblical subjects in general and never come to a conclusion. He said that it is only when we discuss particular texts in the Bible that we will get anywhere. I am inclined to agree with him.

    "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
     
  2. IndpndntBptst

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    "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"
     
  3. sturgman

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    Actually, I think the limitation for some is the reliability of scripture. But you make an excellent point. Pending on how we see the vileness of our sin, and the depravity of our state determines how we see the magnitude of the grace of God. If we see our sin as great, we see grace as great, if we see our sin as minor, we see grace as an assist. That is why I believe Charles Hodge said this issue is the woodshed of how we see God.

    "Often times I go places where they should be singing 'oh mediocre how bland the sound that assisted an ok person like me' the reason why is that they cannot smell their own depravity."

    -Dave Busby
     
  4. npetreley

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    I agree with your point and with your conclusion. But as I pointed out the last time someone used this verse, I can interpret it to mean something other than what I truly believe it means. It could mean that we are part natural, and part spiritual, and these our two natures are consantly at war with each other. I can even point to verses that say as much (Romans, although I believe these verses apply to the saved, not the lost).

    So if we really want to make the point, we need to establish a concrete foundation from context and other scripture that shows the above verse from 1 Cor refers to the entire state of unregenerate man, and not just an aspect of unregenerate man.

    Can someone do that? I need to attend to some duties, but perhaps I'll tackle that if nobody else has done it before I return.
     
  5. Sularis

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    npet - and other guy who started this thread but im not going to scroll down the screen to look since that would be too much effort

    here it goes again

    I dont disagree with Total depravity - Most people dont

    Total Depravity - I agree with
    Unconditional Election - I do not agree with in that form
    Limited Atonement - This one honks me off
    Irresistible Grace - I disagree
    Perserverance of the Saints - I prefer Preservation of the Saints but Ill agree
     
  6. 4study

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    I Corinthians 2:14

    The preconceived notion is that “natural man” references “unregenerate man” or a “portion of unregenerate man”. I’m not sure where this premise comes from but I recall it having to do with the concept of the regenerated having two natures, a sinful one and a spiritual one. Regardless, this verse in and of itself doesn’t say that the “natural man” is an unregenerate person. It’s an interpretation based upon many other assumptions.
     
  7. sturgman

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    Sularis,

    I think hhe is trying to say that if you completely understood Total Depravity, then you would have to agree with the other 4 points. They carry off each other. Some see men as dead, and others see men as kinf of sick. Some see men as blind, others see men as kind of squinting to see. Some see men as deaf, others see man as having to put his ear to his hand to hear. Many don't see man as depraved as he really is, therefore they see salvation as an assist.
     
  8. Sularis

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    Ok, you want to deal total depravity lets dig deeper - the Word of God never returns void

    what can it and does it return?
    What are its effects?

    I think this is where we actually differ but I'll wait and see
     
  9. sturgman

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    what can it and does it return?
    It produces many things

    What are its effects? It effects many things.

    This does not prove your point, for it is not man that takes the word of God to produce things. In fact this does more damage to your point than anything. Are you sure you meant to write this down here for you defence? Or ar you conceding?

    The word of God does not return void, that is true. It returns producing exactly that which it was purposed to produce. Because it is a work of God. If you are trying to prove that the word of God goes out and when man believes it produces salvation, then here is your flaw. The scriptures would have to say that it "may not return void" because the determining factor is not with God it is with man. Therefore God could not with confidence say that it DOES NOT return void.
     
  10. Yelsew

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    Do you not realize that which you focus upon you become!
     
  11. Primitive Baptist

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    It is too late to "become" totally depraved, Yelsew. We already are!
     
  12. npetreley

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    I finally got around to looking at the passage to see how one could avoid misinterpreting it to mean the problem is only with our fleshly nature, and our (man's) spiritual nature could overcome it with free will.

    I thought I'd have to leave 1 Cor to get there, but IMO the best way to address this is simply to quote more of the context.

    This establishes that man does have a "spirit" but clearly the focal point is the Spirit of God.

    This says quite clearly that the spirit of the world does not allow us to understand. So, again, it isn't just a matter of the fleshly part of man vs. the spiritual part of man, since only the Spirit of God gives this understanding.

    Note also the end of the above verse. It does not say that the Spirit helps us understand grace so that we can decide whether or not to accept it. It says the Spirit helps us understand what we have already been freely given. So much for the "call of the Spirit" combined with free will being the pivot point for salvation.

    Anyway, that brings us to the quote, only without the freedom to misinterpret it as a struggle between man's own spirit vs his flesh.

     
  13. Rev. G

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    Paul declares in Acts 17 that people "should" seek the Lord, not that they do. He clearly states in Romans 3 that there is "none who seeks God."
     
  14. Sularis

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    Ok fine - since sturg seems to enjoy to do the equivalent to South Park Cartmans catch phrase whenever I ask something - Ill try really hard to rein my frustration in

    Total depravity does not mean dead - discussion of death would be better suited under Irressistible Grace since corpses dont resist - Total depravity refers to desire - Iresistible Grace refers to ability.


    Total Depravity - its true - Total inability - its true - total sinfulness - its true

    Calvinists minds are shut worse then Charismatics
    thats TRUE!!!

    Jeffrey Dalmer - did he kill-rape-steal everyone he met
    Charles Manson - did he kill-rape-steal everyone he metPaul Bernardo - did he kill-rape-steal everyone he met

    If you closeminded Calvinists havent figured the answer out by now - let me tell you its NO
    Man is incapable of doing anything to save himself
    But of course when I explain it you will say that it saving himself

    Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. {on: or, to}
    Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    You sin sturg, you too npet - yep Dr Bob sins - I sin too (cant forget me), KenH sins, everyone on this board has at least sinned once after becoming a Christian but if we are dead to sin how can we do sin - If you havent figured it out - Im not telling - because no matter what I say - you will kick against the goads

    River - yer drowning - you scream for help - no ones there - you die
    River - yer drowning - you scream for help - God is there - but you dont ask Him specifically for help - you die (every sinner)
    River - yer drowning - you scream for help - God is there - you ask Him specifically for help - you live (Arminianism (IMHO))
    River - yer drowning - you scream for help - God is there - God asks if you really want help - you then ask Him specifically for help - you live (Calvinism (IMHO))

    What saves the man from dying in sin - screaming for help - no he did that in all 4 some he lived some he died - is it God who saves yes and no - obviously its God who pulls the sinner to life - but God also sends people to Hell - which He could have saved. Whats unique in each scenario where He lives - mans response to God

    That saves him - No because obviously that would put man above God - What saves us is something we cant see. Gods prep-planned decision to make sure we could see that He exists and could save us - but that He would wait until we ask.-- You have not because you ask not ... sorry my quotes dont work

    mans arm is outstretched in impending death - almost mortus rictus - some arent stretched out as far - some are straining past what flesh can endure - while sadly most if not all - are too busy trying to stay afloat - to reach out and ask for help.

    Now the point I was trying to make is that the Word of God cannot return void if someone can hear it - and it cannot be heard if someone is dead-dead - that was the base point - there were other points - but obviously we really should deal with the points one by one
     
  15. Bible-belted

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    Sularis,

    You are making a poor distinction. Total depravity does indeed pertain to death, being dead in trespasses and sins. Dead to God.

    But if I might say, you are not the one to define the Calvanistic teaching. Let Calvanists tell you what Total depravity is.

    That is a bare bones version of Total Depravity. TD is an extensive staement, all aspectsof human nature are impacted by the Fall.

    I am afraid I dont' see the relavance of claiming that Christians sin. I don't know anyone that claims otherwise.

    Your illustrationis flawed as well. The biblical teaching is that people are drowning and wil not ask God for help. We do not recognise our need of God.


    This is taking quotes well out of context and then mashing them together. You really should begin as a base with the actual doctrine of Total depravity, and leave your preconceptions and interpretations at home. Let a Calvanist define TD and porvide you with the Biblilcal supprt, then you can check out those scriptures and decide whether TD is a fair summary of those biblical teachings.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    We all have a proclivity toward sinning because of the Adamic nature. We will have this even as Christians until the hour of death or until He comes for His church. [I Thess. 5:23]

    But, to counterbalance this rebellious nature God has lit every person coming into the world. [John 1:9] I might be wrong, but my guess is that not much Calvinistic commentary is offered about these words coming from God through the youngest Apostle. Only the True Light can do this for sinners. This spiritual illumination can come to the unbeliever in many ways. It does shimmer in on the lost through the medium of the intellect, conscience, and complete freedom of the will. The human mind is the conduit by which the simple message of the Gospel is understood, aided by the Holy Spirit. Belief in Christ is a matter of human decision and is the only requirement for redemption and eternal life with Him. [Galatians 2:16]

    Another positive in the life of the sinner and saint is that we are created in 'the Image of God.' [James 3:9]
     
  17. npetreley

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    Congratulations!! You are absolutely correct!!!

    If, as Calvinism claims, total depravity means everyone is "dead", then the "wooing of the Spirit" is like going to a graveyard and inviting the buried dead to come to you. They can't hear you because they're dead.

    Now if you will only take the next step, which is outlined clearly in scripture. Some people DO hear. If some people do hear, then something about the people who hear must have changed.

    Let's see if we can figure out what kind of change is necessary.

    Can anyone in that graveyard spring to life and hear your gentle wooing of their own free will? No. Unless you have the power to raise the dead first, you might as well not bother wooing any of them. They will not be able to hear you.

    Now - who has the ability to raise the dead? I'll make this a multiple choice question so it's really easy.

    A. Man, of his own free will
    B. God

    So Arminianism is very much like a person going to a graveyard and wooing with gentle loving invitations those who are dead and buried. Arminianism is so desperate to hang onto free will, it cannot admit that the dead cannot hear, so it revives them just a teensy little bit so people actually respond. It postulates -- with no scriptural support whatsoever -- that the dead are just barely alive enough to hear and decide.

    But the Bible doesn't say we're ever so slightly slightly alive. It says that without the Spirit of Christ, we're dead. And if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are none of his. So there's dead. And there's alive in Christ. I don't see any "slightly alive" inbetween dead and in Christ described anywhere in the Bible.

    [edited to fix a dangling participle, and emphasis]

    [ February 06, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]
     
  18. npetreley

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    Here is the scriptural description of what I just said.

    Now - if you can find me a verse that says something more like the following, then I'll become an Arminian on the spot.

    "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were almost but not quite dead in trespasses, wooed us, and those of us who chose of our own free will to hear His calling He made completely alive together with Christ (by free will you have been saved)"
     
  19. Yelsew

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    npetreley,
    Your point of view is valid only if one believes that man's spirit is dead in the classic sense of the word, lifeless, not possessing life. However, the same book of scriptures that you quote also contains the following:
    The life of the flesh is the spirit. Without a living spirit, our flesh cannot live. So there must be a different definition for death, and that is 'seperation from the source of life', or limited life. While there is life in the flesh, the spirit lives. While the spirit lives there is time for the spirit of man to believe the words of Jesus and believe in Jesus. Once one believes in Jesus, the one's spirit becomes eternal even though the flesh may die. The spirit does not die with the flesh, but continues to live to face judgment for works and for life. Only those spirits whose names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life are saved from the second death or being cast into the lake of fire.
     
  20. rufus

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    Arminians deny the total depravity of man, in that they hold that the will of man is free and has the ability to choose Christ and the salvation that is in Him. Such teaching is false and delusive. The will of man is free only to choose according to his moral nature, and as his nature is under the dominion of sin, man chooses accordingly. "Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation-, so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." ('Confession of Faith,' Ch. 9, Sec. 3). 'The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (I Cor. 2: 14). 'No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day' (John 6: 44). 'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of His disciples went back and walked no more with Him' (John 6: 65, 66). All who are born again are said to be 'born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God' (John 1: 13). The "evangelism- of decisionism, coming forward to the front, or standing up to make a decision for Christ, or signing decision cards, is purely Arminian. It is not of God, but of the will of man and can only end in delusion and eternal despair.

    Rufus
     

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