Trib begins

I surely don't have all or even some of the answers. What I do have is questions. A few years ago I decided that I would study the Scriptures as I would eat a meal, ask the Lord to bless and nourish, give life to the words.
That has taught me one thing, to get out of the box and let Him do the teaching.

Question: If, in many of the parables that Jesus taught, why did He say that the unrighteous would be removed and the righteous would be left? (Lk. 19:12-27; Mat. 13:36-43; Mat 24:36-40)

Ray Berrian said something that I have always had trouble with .. "The Restrainer, the Holy Spirit, who lived in the lives of the saved will no longer be here to hold the standard of evil in this world."...."The rapture saints and the Great Tribulation saints will return with Christ to destroy the enemies of Christ."
Question: If the Holy Spirit is gone how can anyone be saved? (Jn. 16: 8-11)..Could the restrainer be the conscience of man which is getting duller and duller each day at an alarming rate?
In the book, Revelation of Jesus Christ John says that what he saw was in heaven and he has written it down.
Question: Just which part of the book do you take literally and which part do you look at symbolically? Even Paul refused to say what he saw because he did not have words to describe it.
It is my opinion that the Old Testament reveals the symbols in the book. I don't think God would have every tom, dick and harry read it and have it all figured out.
Question: How much of the population on this earth have died from the result of plagues, wars, and famines since AD 70? Do you think it could equal the percentages recorded in the book of Revelation?

Question in answer to the original question:
What was the day to day life on earth after Noah entered the ark? What was the day to day life in Sodom and Gomorrah like the day after the fire and brimstone rained on them?
And that is just a few of my questions, the Lord has given some light on a few and I am still digging on the rest.

 

Matt. 24.36 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Obviously, Jesus didn't know Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey. THEY'VE got it all figured out!

Seriously...I hold a high view of Scripture. I do believe that St John HAD a vision on Patmos, and faithfully recorded it for us. And I DO believe that Jesus will 'come again' to usher-in the end of human history. But...

But these pre-millenial scenarios are, with all due respect, silly. Revelation is a book that speaks to the 1st century Christian, living in the Roman Empire.

The Scroll, the Seals, the Horses, the Trumpets, all of them tell the Church what it must expect: that there will be no respite in the Church Age, but be faithful! and those who 'endure to the end' will be saved, and do not fear, Jesus IS Lord!

All of the symbols in Revelation ARE real symbols, but not to be taken literally, but one should believe what they represent.

Revelation is also NOT chronological, but is a series of pictures/visions saying essentially the same thing.

Interesting too, (and lacking in many discussions)is the words of Jesus (for example Mt.24/5)regarding the end. Rev. 6 and Mt. 24 are nearly exactly alike in what the represent! But nowhere in Mt 24 do I see Jesus talking about a 'secret' rapture or a 1000 year millenial kingdom.

 

"Obviously, Jesus didn't know Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey. THEY'VE got it all figured out!"
''
Which why I personally don't take endtime theology all that seriously.

"these pre-millenial scenarios are, with all due respect, silly. Revelation is a book that speaks to the 1st century Christian, living in the Roman Empire."
''
Texts can have multiple layers of meaning, Hermas his work "The Shepherd" was considered worth reading in church when it was written, but not one for the ages. The Apocalypse however was made part of scripture.

 

If you are the only one teaching that, then it's a sure bet that it's not part of the apostolic deposit of faith.

I'll respond in more detail tonight.

 

Shewfly: "Question: How much of the population on this earth have died from the result of plagues, wars, and famines since AD 70? Do you think it could equal the percentages recorded in the book of Revelation?"

About 30,000 Million have died; 6,000 Million remain.
And your point is? It took 1,976 years for these to die.
That is an average of 15 Million a year.

I believe a 1,000 million will be raptured at the start
of the Tribulation. when 1/3 are killed, it will
be 2,000 Million - in a fortnight not 15 Million a year
average. Sorry, Jesus says the Tribulation will be the
worse thing that ever happens on earth. I still believe
what Jesus says. So you gotta figure worse than 25 million
Europeans dying the Black Plague in 7 years in the 1300s.
So you gotta figure worse than Hitler killing 50 Million
citizens of mostly Europe in a 5-year span.

It is called "tribulation" instead of "Sunday School picnic"
probably for a reason. Eh?

 

Jude: "But nowhere in Mt 24 do I see Jesus
talking about a 'secret' rapture ... "

I'm hurt. You don't bother to even mention
that i shewed where that happens and how to
see it. You act as though you have totally
ignored everything i said. At least show
a bit of respect and say i'm stupid or
wrong or something. Please don't ignore me. Thank you.

BTW, i accuse you of bringing items to the
discussion that don't belong in this topic.
We are not discussing Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey
here nor their ideas. We are talking the ideas
of Ray Berrian and Doubting Thomas and BobRyan and Ed.

As best i recall, none of them mentioned
"'secret' rapture". But i guess if you want
to talk about it, feel free to define what it
is you are talking about. Thank you.

 

Doubting Thomas: "If you are the only one teaching that, then it's a sure bet that it's not part of the apostolic deposit of faith."

Ah, so then the Doctrine of Prosperity Gospel
by this logic can be "part of the apostolic deposit of faith".
There are over a dozen millionare TV preachers preaching
that "gospel".

 

Matt. 24.30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Not the 'rapture', but the 2nd Coming.

BTW, very-few of the posters on BB are 'stupid'. Many of the posters who advocate Premillenialism are, as evidenced in their posts, intelligent. But even intelligent people can have 'silly' ideas. (Heck, I worked for George McGovern!).
Anyway...I suppose the important thing is that we all -most of us here- believe in the 2nd Coming. I suspect that ALL of us will be -if we live at the time of the 'End'- will be surprised in some way or the other. Oh yes, there will be the occasional 'Simeon' who recognizes what is going on. But I think that the Lord, while giving us a lot of information, hasn't told us EVERYTHING. I DO believe that it is somewhat likely we are nearing the 'End'. I say that based on the fact of growing wickedness in the world, the growing immorality in the U.S., and the capability of mankind to -now- blow this planet up. I also think that the growing apostasy in the churches is another 'sign'. I also believe, even though I believe that the Cov't with Israel is OVER, that the fact that she IS there may have something to do with the 'End'. I also believe that there may be some-kind of antichrist figure at the end as well. Every Sunday, in our liturgy, we say, "...Christ will come again." THAT I believe, and say, with all the host of heaven, "Lord Jesus, come quickly!"

[ June 04, 2004, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]

 

Nope. They fail the tests of antiquity, universality, and consent.

 

Matt. 24.30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will
send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from
the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Not the 'rapture', but the 2nd Coming.

Ray is saying, 'I agree with your above statement about this being the Second Coming of Christ. But, I Thess. 4:17 is distinctly not a part of this event. These who you indicate of Christ's elect will be those who get saved after the Rapture and during the Great Tribulation. Notice Jesus said, 'Immediately after the Tribulation of those days . . . ' '


BTW, very-few of the posters on BB are 'stupid'. Many of the posters who
advocate Premillenialism are, as evidenced in their posts, intelligent. But even
intelligent people can have 'silly' ideas. (Heck, I worked for George
McGovern!).

Ray is saying, 'Did you see, that special programming where former- Senator Dole and Mc Govern both told about their experience in war time? Mc Govern was a bomber pilot and one of his bombs they could not dislodge from the open, bottom doors of the plane. Finally it dropped and blew up a barn/farm but the German family of three saw the plane coming and fled to a deep ditch and escaped with their lives. The farmer called Mc Govern while watching the program and said that he should not be troubled because they fled their house and were saved from sudden death.'

You said, 'Anyway...I suppose the important thing is that we all -most of us here-
believe in the 2nd Coming. I suspect that ALL of us will be -if we live at the
time of the 'End'- will be surprised in some way or the other. Oh yes, there
will be the occasional 'Simeon' who recognizes what is going on. But I think
that the Lord, while giving us a lot of information, hasn't told us
EVERYTHING. I DO believe that it is somewhat likely we are nearing the 'End'.
I say that based on the fact of growing wickedness in the world, the growing
immorality in the U.S., and the capability of mankind to -now- blow this
planet up. I also think that the growing apostasy in the churches is another
'sign'. I also believe, even though I believe that the Cov't with Israel is OVER,
that the fact that she IS there may have something to do with the 'End'. I
also believe that there may be some-kind of antichrist figure at the end as
well.'

Ray is saying, 'I agree that we are due some punishment from the Lord here in the USA because of our great national sins. Our first warning was the Twin Towers. I know that Israel will stand forever, but not without war and loss of life. Jesus has great plans for Israel; it will be His seat of Divine authority for 1,000 years. O.T. proof: Zechariah 14; N.T. proof: Revelation 20.'

You said, 'Every Sunday, in our liturgy, we say, "...Christ will come again." THAT I
believe, and say, with all the host of heaven, "Lord Jesus, come quickly!"

Ray is saying, 'Is it more important that your liturgy declares this or that the Bible says the same thing in Revelation 22:20?

 

They face the judgement.

 

Ray, Ray, calm down!
It is important that ANY liturgy contain Scripture/Scriptural truth. Relax!

 

I'm not sure the Twin Towers were any kind of warning, other than that of terrorism. As far as the U.S.A.'s fall from grace, we've received MANY warnings, or at least, (as the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse tell us) consequences. Certainly, high on the list is the 1.5 million aborted babies every year since '73. A rise in drug use, a rise in family breakdown, a rise in inmate population...the breakdown of moral standards on TV/Movies/Culture in general...the apostasy of all the mainline Protestant denominations...all these and many more tell me that WE are in trouble.

 

Jude,

Your facts are sobering. Is there any way of making a unified attack or defense against the steam-rolling evils in our country and in Canada?

 

Okay, here's what some of the church Fathers had to say on the matter of the Church, the Tribulation, the Antichrist, and the Second Coming....

“O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..”
(Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, xc)

“In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings." It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight.”
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.26.1)

“ But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed.”
(Irenaeus, A.H. 5.30.4)

“In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view, which "the souls of the martyrs" are taught to wait for beneath the altar, whilst they earnestly pray to be avenged and judged: (taught, I say, to wait), in order that the world may first drink to the dregs the plagues that await it out of the vials of the angels, and that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; and that, after the casting of the devil into the bottomless pit for a while, the blessed prerogative of the first resurrection may be ordained from the thrones; and then again, after the consignment of him to the fire, that the judgment of the final and universal resurrection may be determined out of the books”
(Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25)

“For the apostle makes a distinction, when he goes on to say, "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked; " which means, before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of immortality. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 41)

"By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the "moon under her feet" he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, "upon her head a crown of twelve stars," refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, "she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered," mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. "And she brought forth," he says, "a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; "by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, "her child was caught up unto God and to His throne," signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." "And the dragon," he says, "saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: "And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings."’
(Hippolytus, Treatise of Christ and Antichrist 60-61)

“Daniel prophesies of the last judgment in such a way as to indicate that Antichrist shall first come, and to carry on his description to the eternal reign of the saints. For when in prophetic vision he had seen four beasts, signifying four kingdoms, and the fourth conquered by a certain king, who is recognized as Antichrist, and after this the eternal kingdom of the Son of man, that is to say, of Christ, he says, "My spirit was terrified, I Daniel in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me," etc. Some have interpreted these four kingdoms as signifying those of the Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, and Romans. They who desire to understand the fitness of this interpretation may read Jerome's book on Daniel, which is written with a sufficiency of care and erudition. But he who reads this passage, even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints.”
(Augustine, City of God 20.23)

Of course, there is a lot more where that came from. The point is that the Church has always understood that it would have to face the Antichrist, and not that it would be evacutated before
the Tribulation. (The idea that the "church age" would end before the arrival of the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation would not have entered into the thinking of early Christians, which makes talk about "polysyndetons" moot .)

 

I've put my own handy dandy study guide for the book of Revelation on the internet where you can download it as a pdf file. Rejoice - it is not premilliniest in viewpoint!

http://www.epud.net/~richmond/bible/amain.htm

 

Paul,
Thanks for sharing. It looks pretty interesting.

 

That file lost me when it said:
"Babylon the great falls on judgement day - obviously Rome"

I think God can do a better job
than getting Babylon and Rome confused.

 

I would prefer 'attack', since Jesus said, "the gates of hell will not prevail against (the church)." That said, only one thing can save America, and that is renewal/revival. Basically, we are a country divided, probably 50/50. 50% are liberal/moderate, the other are basically Christian (at least in world-view). The trend will continue to worsen, with an accompanying decline in morals/policy/law/culture, UNLESS revival comes. Too many churches are pre-occupied with 'filling the pews'/making a budget, and not seeing that we are, indeed, in a war. Too many Christians want a 'comfortable' religion. Too many are asleep. 1.5 MILLION babies MURDERED in the womb every year, and how many Christians are doing ANYTHING? I'd guess 5%. Sad. I think that we, the Body of Christ, need to do 3 things. First, commit to personal holiness. Second, commit to a greater understanding of our faith. We need to be smarter. Finally, we need to PRAY for renewal. Frankly, it would take a MIRACLE for America to change course. Without such a miracle, America will continue to erode, (aren't we becoming more and more like Babylon?) and I shudder to think what kind of America my grandchildren will grow up in. But a revival/renewal is NOT impossible! "With God, all things are possible!"
And remember, Jesus said, "I have overcome the world!"

 

There is also a "Revelation Commentary" online that is Premillennial/Prewrath in Perspective:

http://www.revelationcommentary.org