Tribulation of WHAT days???

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Gerad, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. Gerad

    Gerad
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    Come on, guys, let's vote out futurism right now. Post your vote on this effective immediately.


    What days was Jesus referring to in this verse: "..the tribulation of THOSE days.." (Matt.24:29)


    I want to see some real exegesis, guys. That means taking into consideration the preceding text and context, which was all about Jerusalem and the Temple. If the text about Jerusalem being compassed with armies and the Temple destroyed HAPPENED, then the trib has happened, since those things characterized the trib Jesus was referring to.

    Also, the time statement "this generation" demands a first century fulfillment. Come on, now. I honestly believe that everyone KNOWS that what I am saying is true, now you just need to accept what Jesus said instead of redefining it to accomodate pride and a cherished, preconceived viewpoint (futurism, with Jesus seated on a big chair in Jerusalem in a rebuilt stone ediface - I wonder if it will have air conditioning this time around).

    The fact is, Jesus didn't teach any of the "revived and rebuilt" scenario which Baptists cherish, not to mention the idea of him sitting one day on a big chair in JErusalem and ruling the world with an angelic police force. What right do WE have in teaching that? None.

    Ok, post your vote:

    1. Trib of 70 A.D. - ALL the stated characteristics of "the trib of THOSE DAYS" definitely happened then. That cannot be denied.

    2. Future late-great planet earth tribulation which Baptists love to preach about.


    Which one, guys??

    I will tally the vote tonight and announce the results. In past polls like this, preterism vanquished all foes...it wasn't even close.

    This ought to be good.
     
  2. Helen

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    You sound very bossy!

    However, unless you consider what Hitler did less than the destruction of Jerusalem, then the Tribulation has not happened yet.

    Jesus' referral to 'generation' is that the generation which sees the beginning of these things will also see the final accomplishment. That is, the events will be swift and will happen within a generation.

    You don't think Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years? You had better tear out a good part of Isaiah from your Bible then and the last part of Revelation, to say the least!
     
  3. TexasSky

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    You said: Also, the time statement "this generation" demands a first century fulfillment.

    I feel you are incorrect, and I feel Helen is correct.

    The Jews of history made that same mistake regarding certain prophecies. Time and the bible have shown us that the phrase "generation" does not always mean "people living right now".

    Generation can refer to a group with certain things in common. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes: “They're the television generation” (Roger Enrico).

    I do, however, believe Helen is correct in saying that Christ meant, "The group living to see these signs will also see the end."

    If your theory was correct, and we had already been through the tribulation, this would be the new heaven and the new earth. Doesn't fit the bill.
     
  4. Gerad

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    All the signs literally characterized that extremely turbulent first century period. This is well documented in Joesephus, Eusebius, Acts, Tacitus, etc... The chief sign was "Jerusalem compassed with armies..the desolation thereof", which happened in 70 A.D.
     
  5. TexasSky

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    Gerad,

    Vs 14 is the "chief" sign.

    "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

    The gospel had not even reached most of the world by the end of the 1st century.

    Regarding the destrcution of the temple. The verse makes a reference to when the idol of Zeus was set up in the temple, and thus divides that prediction into 2 stages.

    The first is commonly believed to be the AD 70 destruction of the temple which you compared it to. The second is setting up the image of the anti-Christ in Jerusalem. If you go to 2 Thessalonians 2 you will read this:

    1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us saying that the day of the Lord has already come 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    Revelations 13:14-15
    "And he preformed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived."
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Ooops, somebody forgot to tell Paul this:

    Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh )for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come.

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world ( ko/smov ), and preach the gospel to the whole creation .(ktiðsiv)

    Matt.28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (eáqnov ), baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:


    Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth ( gh=),

    All fulfilled in the 1st century :

    Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation ( ktiðsiv )under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister

    Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov) unto obedience of faith:

    Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).

    So now "generation" means contemporaries and not race.
     
  7. TexasSky

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    Romans 10:18 is quoting a Psalm, and that Psalm is referencing the angels. It is used here to say that Israel couldn't use an excuse of "We didn't know," because the ministers went everywhere.

    In the end days, men will not be able to beg God for mercy on the "I didn't know," excuse. At the end of the first century, the gospel had NOT gone to the whole world.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Gerad

    You are incorrect. If you believe full preterism then you believe grevious error and deny much of Scripture regarding the furure.

    Also those dispensationalists are similarly incorrect in their belief in the gospel of the kingdom, the failure of Jesus Christ to establish such a kingdom, the pretrib removal of the Church, the 7 year great tribulation, and the 1000 year Jewish millennium.

    The truth is presented in Scripture and is summarized in the Abstract of Principles of the Southern seminary and in the 1689 London Confession of Faith.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    Grasshopper,

    You have to be careful what you read and interpreting them.

    Reading the verse and intepreting in grammatically is so very important that we must understand the grammatical is talking about.

    Colossians 1:6 seems telling us, that gospel already reache dover all nations. But, this verse telling us that, it commanded to every persons in thw world that we ought to bring forth fruit. This does not mean that every person in the world already actual did bring their fruits. This is speak of commanding to every person to bring their fruit.

    Col. 1:13 is speak of conditional warning to every person of the world that we ought to continue faith in our root(being abide in Christ of John chapter 15). Also, this verse commanded us that we do not turn away from the truth. 'Which was preached to every creature which in under heaven' does mean that the gospel was actual already reach unto all nations during Paul's time. This verse telling us that all people in the the world are commanded to hear the gospel and to obey the gospel as what Christ commanded us of Matt. 28:19-20 & Mark 16:15 too.

    Romans 16:26 seems telling us, the gospel already reached unto all nations during Paul's time. But this verse telling us, that many prophets and us are commanded to preach the gospel to all nations, which all that ehar and to obey it.

    Same with Romans 10:18 telling us.

    Understand, during year between 30 A.D. to 60 A.D. the gospel was actually did spreading over Middle East, Europe, and partially west of Asia. But, during in that period, North America, South America, Austrialia, and many other nations were not yet hear the gospel.

    White people or Christians were not yet reached America till in year around 15th Century.

    Your argument is fallacy.

    Matt. 24:14 is not yet fulfilled. Verse 14 is fulfilling in the process right now, as the gospel is continue spreading over the world. Yet about over a half of world population not yet hear the gospel. So, we are still long way to go. Christ promised us, when the gospel reaches over all nations THEN the end shall come.

    Deaf people were not yet hear the gospel TILLLLLLLLLL early or middle of thr 19th Century. So, your argument is fallacy.

    Still about 70% of deaf world population is not yet hear the gospel today. We are looooong way to go.

    Understand?

    In CHrist
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

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    Another GOOD Thought.....

    Suppose full preterism is correct, saying the gospel already reached to all nations by the time around 70 A.D. Christ already arrived earth.

    THEN I would not have been born and live on earth tilll in November 22, 1969. Huh?! :eek:

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    It is up to your side to prove Jesus had something other in mind than that of which Paul spoke of.


    And the partial-preterist are incorrect because of their inconsistency. They like the "comfortable" areas of both sides.

    How much more grammatical can you get? Using the exact greek words attributed to Jesus, Paul proclaims they were all fulfilled. How more literal can you get?

    Take this up with Paul. Obviously you believe he was incorrect.

    Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh )for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come .
    .

    Lets see, Paul says the gospel was preached to the world and nations, then Peter tells us the end is near:

    Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov) unto obedience of faith:

    Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).

    1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand : be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

    Peter understood. All seems to fit together.

    We stumble over the obvious in search of the obscure.

    Please tell me you’re kidding.

    You might think it’s a good thought, but I have no idea what you’re saying.
     
  12. OldRegular

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    I am not a partial preterist but I believe you incorrectly state that they are incorrect because of their inconsistency.

    First I will present a brief exegesis of Matthew 24 that I presented on another thread in response to a question.

    Examine first Matthew 24:1-3:

    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Notice that in verse 2 Jesus Christ states: See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Now notice the response of the disciples in verse 3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

    [1.] Tell us, when shall these things be? and

    [2.] what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    Please notice that there the disciples asked a two part question. It is my opinion that Jesus Christ answers both these questions in Chapter 24. Part of Chapter 24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and part refers to the return of Jesus Christ at the end of the age or on the Last Day, whichever you prefer.

    I will not attempt to exegete the entire chapter since people have written books to do so. However, I believe that there is one passage in particular that refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, that is verses 15-22. My rationale for this opinion is that it would be foolish to give people the advice given in those verses if the events described in 2 Peter 3:1-13, which describes the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, are taking place.

    Incidentally it is a historical fact that those Christians in Jerusalem were warned to flee Jerusalem [verse 16] before Rome destroyed the city.

    Now I do not believe that my understanding of Matthew 24 makes me even a 1% preterist since the destruction of Jerusalem was in no way associated with some sort of return of Jesus Christ.”
     
  13. Grasshopper

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    On what basis do you divide the Discourse? Jesus never seems to switch subjects.

    In Lukes account he says this:

    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    What does he mean?
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Gerad: "What days was Jesus referring to in this
    verse: "..the tribulation of THOSE days.." (Matt.24:29)"

    These days:

    Mat 24:21-22 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since
    the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
    22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should
    no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those
    dayes shall be shortned.

    This clearly says the Great Tribulation Period will
    be the worse thing that ever happens on Earth EVER.

    Verse 29 is refering to the WORSE THING THAT EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH.

    The invasion of General Titus and destrution of a million
    Jews in 70AD is NOT the worse thing that every happened on earth.

    The blod of six million Jews killed by Hitler cry out
    the testimony: the 70AD events ARE NOT "the tribulation of THOSE days".

    Futurism - the only Eschatology that makes sense.

    Pretribulation Rapture - the only x-trib theory that makes sense
    of God's plan for the ages.
     
  15. TexasSky

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    I have no issue with Paul at all.
    I have an issue with your inaccurate intepretation of Paul.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Gerad: //The chief sign was "Jerusalem compassed with
    armies..the desolation thereof", which happened in 70 A.D.//

    That seems strange, because the 'chief sign's according
    to Matthew 24 are:
    The pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming of Jesus
    has NO SIGN(s).
    The coming of Jesus in Power and Glory to destroy the
    Antichrist and his minions - the main sign is the preceeding
    7-year Tribulation on earth.
    (This coming is where Jesus sets up the physical
    Millinnial Kingdom on Earth).
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    The author of the opening post (OP) does not
    support the many topics he starts.

    But for those who do like to discuss eschaotology:
    --------------------
    The BB now has way to many Eschatological topics.
    I'm spending more time on Eschatology than
    working :(

    I'll be responding to these and other matters
    at this location:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350.html
    Click it and check it out.

    (BTW, the non-baptists seem to be more
    congenial than baptists anyway :confused: )
     
  18. OldRegular

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    On what basis do you divide the Discourse? Jesus never seems to switch subjects.

    In Lukes account he says this:

    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    What does he mean?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Simple, read Matthew 24:3. The Apostles asked Jesus Christ two questions; one was related to the destruction of the temple, the second was related to His return and the end of the world. He answered both questions.

    Matthew 24:2, 3
    2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


    In Luke 21:6, 7 the record shows the Apostles also asking two question in slightly different form:

    Luke 21:6, 7
    6. As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    7. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

    Jesus Christ answers the first question related to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD in verses 8-24; the second question is answered in verses 25-33.
     

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