Tribulation Saints

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Mel Miller, May 16, 2006.

  1. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    How will Tribulation saints be saved?

    ituttut teaches the following:
    Quote from thread on Endtimes:
    _________________________________________________
    Prophecy again takes over and people will once again have to make "blood sacrifices to God", just as was required by all from Adam. Don't you find it strange we are never told to make "blood sacrifice"?

    All before Damascus Road had to, and all after the Rapture will have to. That is not Christian to do that for we are told we are saved by coming through His Blood for He was slaughtered for Us".
    ________________________________________________

    ituttut assumes that Tribulation Saints are
    "told to make blood sacrifices"! This false
    premise is based on the perception that the
    Jews can be saved during the Tribulation by
    observing the O T sacrificial system!!

    Instead, we are "told that those coming out
    of great tribulation will be "washed in the
    BLOOD of the Lamb!! They keep the testimony
    of Jesus Christ"!! Rev.7:14; Rev.20:4;

    Trib-Martyrs will be serving God as Pillars
    in heaven's temple and be "led by the Lamb"
    in heaven for 1000 years while the Pre-Trib
    saints who "overcome to the end sit on their thrones on earth"!! Rev.3:12; Rev.2:25-27; Rev.7:15-17.

    This attempt to make salvation dependant on
    "keeping sacrifices" (while the Jews remain
    in a state of "blindness until the fulness"
    of the Gentiles comes in) indirectly denies
    what Paul taught, i.e., that this blindness
    will continue until Messiah appears and all
    of Israel will be saved"!! Rom.11:25-26.

    This attempt also has led Pre-Trib Dispies
    to claim the "End of the Age" occurs as of
    the Pre-Trib Rapture instead of the second
    coming of Christ.

    Here is a quote showing the false teaching
    at 1:15 AM from another thread concerning
    the "End of the Age" referenced in Mt.24:

    Quote by Ed Edwards:
    _______________________________________
    “Good grief the Age Ends with the Pre Tribulation Raptue. This contradicts no scriputre and fulfilles many”.
    _______________________________________

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
    [​IMG]
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    We have to remember that when Christ was on the cross, after he drank vinegar, then he said, "It is finished". He yielded up his soul. Shows that the prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled concerning Jesus Christ and the Calvary. Also, at the same time, in the building of temple, the veil was torn down from top to bottom, shows that God was finished with daily animal sacrifices and offerings. Now Jesus Christ is our sacrifice, and we are his priests. We have rights to ask Christ to forgive and wash our sins away through his blood daily 24 hours. Christ's blood already paid all our sins of all ages at once.

    God only have one plan of salvation through all ages from the beginning to the end. Base upon the faith only, no other else.

    Some disps teaching that, when the grace gones(Holy Spirit departed-rapture), then the tribulation saints, which will miss rapture, will have to keep the golden rules or keep the commandments in the order of good works for salvation during seven year of tribulation period.

    It is not biblical.

    Bible always emphasis us, that salvation always come through the faith only.

    God only have one family from the beginning to the end of the age, by through the faith in Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:26, 28-29).

    Dispensationalism teachings make look so complex and weird to me. Dispensationalism always emphasis there is a distinction between Israel and Church in God's program. Actual, the Bible teaching us, that we are Israel of God. Both Israel and Church are same meaning, it means God's people. Church doesn't replace Israel. Never. Church is Israel, Israel is Church.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. Mel Miller

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    DeafPosttrib,

    Thanks for emphasizing that God's plan for
    salvation is "one plan" based on the shedding
    of blood whether under the Old Covenant or
    the New Covenant.

    I would modify your closing remark that:
    ___________________________________________
    Church is Israel, Israel is Church.
    ___________________________________________

    That statement is misleading, IMO, because it
    suggests God has no future for Israel as a nation to fulfill a New Covenant for them that is different than that fulfilled by the Cross.

    When "all Israel is saved" at Messiah's return,
    God will "show mercy to all" mankind in a way
    that revives the Old sacrificial system to
    test the "obedience of faith" rather than that
    of "salvation by faith".

    God will "remember their sins no more" because they repent and He will "relent". Joel 2:11-14.

    The Jews will be called upon to lead Gentiles
    in the annual observance of worshiping the Lord at Jerusalem. At the end of the Millennium, all
    the goats who have not treated the least of His
    brothers as they had "outwardly" treated Him
    will be "separated from the sheep nations and cast into Hell".

    There will be no separation at the start of the
    Millennium because all those who are not truly
    saved OR who fail to "beg to escape" God's
    wrath will be "cast into Hell". During the MK,
    the only inhabitants of Hell will be the Beast
    and False Prophet.

    The sheep "separated" at the End of the MK will
    "inherit the eternal kingdom on the New Earth
    prepared for them from the world's foundation".
    That Kingdom will include a people in number
    as great as the "stars of heaven". Matt.25:32-34.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    Can somebody show me the clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture passage which identifies the Restrainer as the Holy Spirit? I see this stated time after time, but I can't find the passage. One teacher I know thinks the restrainer is Michael the Archangel. Can't find that either.
     
  5. Mel Miller

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    Tom,

    Does your concern about the identity of the one or the power that restrains evil, prior to the
    the great tribulation, have any bearing on
    "how tribulation saints will be saved"?

    I would like to see responses on this thread
    reflect the two-fold approach to the matter
    of who will be "left" to populate the Kingdom.
    Does a Gospel of the Kingdom differ from the
    Gospel of grace during the tribulation?

    If believers are saved during the tribulation
    only to "inherit" an earthly kingdom, rather
    than be part of the eternal New Jerusalem as
    the Bride/Body of Christ, then the question of how they are saved is of utmost importance.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  6. Calvibaptist

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    What if you are a-millenial and believe that we are in the tribulation (not a literal 7 years) right now while the kingdom is in process of development? In that case, "tribulation saints" would be all believers.
     
  7. webdog

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    Michael couldn't have power over satan. Michael himself said "the Lord rebuke you"....Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when he was disputing with the Devil in a debate about Moses' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

    The restrainer is labeled "He". In the context of Jude 9, the "He" can only be Deity.
     
  8. Tom Butler

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    Mel Miller asked:
    Yes, it does. In my first exposure to dispensational eschatology, I was taught that after the pre-trib rapture, no other Gentiles would be saved--only Jews, during the tribulation. Unexplained was how the 144,000 "Jewish Evangelists" in Rev. 7 were saved. The only other teaching was that many Jews would be saved at the post-trib second coming when the "looked upon Him whom they have pierced." The rationale for no Gentile salvation was that the Holy Spirit was gone.

    But it seems that Gentiles (those "left behind")will be saved, according to the same Rev. 7, who came out of the tribulation, and many dispys today teach that. So I'm confused. If the Holy Spirit is not present, how can that happen?

    In my recent post, I mentioned one view that the restrainer might be Michael the archangel, according to one of my teachers. Maybe not, but I'd surely like to see some scripture for him being the HS, instead of arriving at that view by some convoluted deduction.
     
  9. Mel Miller

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    Tom, webdog and Calvibaptist,

    Good deduction about the theoretical Dispy assumption for the identity of the restrainer.
    Quote:
    _______________________________________________
    But it seems that (among Dispy teachers) the Gentiles (those "left behind") will be saved, according to the same Rev. 7, who came out of the tribulation, and many dispys today teach that. So I'm confused. If the Holy Spirit is
    not present, how can that happen?
    _______________________________________________

    OK, I follow you. I started this thread because the Dispy Theory of an absent Holy Spirit after the Rapture, as advocated by ituttut and Me4Him, is accompanied by their theory of a "divided" Trinity or of Two Gospels, one today for our salvation by grace and another Gospel for the Tribulation Saints (mostly Jews) to be saved by keeping the sacrifices.

    Some, like Ed Edwards, also teach that those
    "coming out of the great tribulation" actually arrive in heaven via the Rapture 3 1/2 years "before" the great tribulation begins!

    IMO, God will remove Mystery Babylon as the final
    restrainer of evil in the world because of its compromising fornication with all religions and
    realms and rulers. This religious system must
    "rule the kings of the earth for a short time" and then God will "remove it from the midst of government" because of its apostasy.

    This "apostasy" (rebellion) of religious leaders
    will continue during the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven and be "destroyed by ten kings" before Antichrist rules the world. Rev.17:16-18.

    Calvibaptist, My answer to the Amil denial of a future Millennial kingdom is that the 1000 years cannot begin until the last Martyr has been killed and Christ comes to "avenge their blood". For they must "reign with Christ 1000 years, serve God as Pillars in the Temple of heaven" (Rev.3;12 and Rev.7:14-15) before the New Jerusalem can come down from heaven.

    AND they will be "led by the Lamb in fountains of living waters prior to the New Heaven and Earth". Rev.20:4; Rev.7:17. The 1000 years has not begun as of their experience in heaven because of the change from the Aorist Indicative to the Aorist Subjunctive mood for the "1000 years that still should be finished"!! And also
    because there will "no temple" in when the New
    Jerusalem comes down from heaven. Rev.21:22.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    Tell me something else, Bro.Mel. Is it a desire for consistency among the dispys that leads to the view of the restrainer as the HS. As, since the Holy Spirit formed the church at Pentecost, and since the church is raptured out, the HS goes with it.

    The problem with that,as I see it is that the church was not formed on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus founded it during His earthly ministry. There were even instances of the operation of the HS during His time on earth.
     
  11. Benjamin

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    Think I’ll stay away from a theoretical exposition but these passages might be what you’re looking for; (he who letteth) some say it’s the HS being the restrainer, but I agree with your teacher.

    (1Jo 2:18) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


    (2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    (2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    (2Th 2:9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


    (Rev 12:7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    (Rev 12:8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    (Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    Depends who one thinks this angel is, chain in hand, seems to be his job.

    (Rev 20:1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    (Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    (Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


    (Dan 12:1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
     
  12. npetreley

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    I don't think the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. I do happen to think it is Michael. There isn't any perfectly clear text to prove it, as far as I know, but I think you can make a fairly strong argument for it being Michael by comparing Daniel 12 to the chronology of events leading to the great tribulation.

    The problem is that most modern translations describe Michael as "standing up" right before the great tribulation. This makes it sound like he rises to defend the people he is assigned to protect. But if that's the case, then why does the great tribulation begin the moment he stands up? If he rises to defend the people, then he obviously fails miserably, since it's only then when all heck breaks loose.

    But the Hebrew can also be translted as "stands still" or "stands down". This would mean that is the moment he STOPS defending the people he is assigned to protect. If this is the more correct translation, his "standing down" is what allows the great tribulation to begin. That would be the basis of a good argument in favor of Michael being the restrainer.
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    The best argument is for the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit indwells each and every true believer. When the rapture comes, the true believers will be called out. The Holy Spirit will be taken out as well.
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    The only way you can understand 2 Thess. 2:7 clear, to read the passage by context. Before you read 2 Thess. 2:7, first, you have to read start with verse 1 thru 7, then you will be able to understand what Paul was talking out.

    The question is, who is 'he' of 2 Thess. 2:7? Holy Spirit? Satan? God? Micheal? Church?

    First, you have to read start with verse 3 then you read continue through from verse 3 to 7, even also verse 8 too.

    'He' of verse 7 is speak of:

    vs. 3 - "man of sin"
    vs. 3 - "the son of perdition"
    vs. 4 - "Who"
    vs. 4 - "himself"
    vs. 4 - "he"
    vs. 4 - "himself"
    vs. 4 - "he"
    vs. 6 - "he"
    vs. 6 - "his"
    vs. 7 - "mystery of iniquity"
    vs. 7 - "he"
    vs. 7 - "he"
    vs. 8 - "Wicked"

    Who is the person of the context of 2 Thess. 2:3-8 focus on?

    Micheal? No. Church? No. God? No. Holy Spirit? No. Satan? Yes.

    How do I know 'he' is Satan?

    The only way we can understand 2 Thess. 2:4b better. You have to read reference verse with this verse.

    Notice word, 'sitteth' of 2 Thess. 2:4. This verse seems telling us that, the Antichrist shall sit on the literal throne in the literal building of the temple - literally. But, verse 4 does not take into literally and physical. It speaks of spiritual meaning.

    'Sitteth' of 2 Thess. 2:4 doesn't take it literal mean to sit on a throne. 'Sitteth' in spiritual mean, to have power over or to have authority.

    I find a good example verse of 'sitteth' in Revelation 17:9 says, "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountians, on which the woman sitteth." Does this verse telling us that a literal woman shall sit on a literal throne upon literal seven mountians - physically? No. this verse 9 gives us the picture of spiritual & symbol meaning. This verse 9 shows us, that a woman shall take power and rule over the seven moutians.

    When I was a boy, I learned from the school from the teacher about continents. Continent means, a large body of a dry land. There are seven continents: 1. North America 2. South America 3. Africa 4. Europe/Russia/Asia 5. Austraila 6. Greenland 7. Antractica.

    So, Rev. 17:9 gives us the picture that Babylon is control over the world. I called it, 'New World Order'.

    Now back to 2 Thess. 2:4, please look above to verse 3. Paul tells us, do not let anyone deceive us of any teaching, rumour, believe that they saying the day of Christ is already arrived(vs. 2). Paul said, day of Christ shall not come yet till we must see come a falling away first. Falling away means apostasy. The signs of apostasy is already happening everywhere over the world today since from Early Church to now. Apostasy is not always direct toward to unbelievers and world conditions. Also, apostasy is include amongst believers as Church. We already see so many Christians are falling away from the Lord. Stopped attending church, stopped praying, stopped witness, back to world again, etc.

    Paul tells us, day of Christ shall not come till we must see apostasy come first. Even, now it is already happening right now.

    God sees Christians are falling away everywhere. He is longsuffering with them(2 Peter 3:9). He wants everyone come to repentance. But, God have been seeing many Christians are continuing astray become worsen throughout periods lately today. I am sure that God seems to me, he is becoming lose his longsuffering or patience with them, as his wrath becoming increasing slowly toward believers. God knows when the right time to come while believers' astray become much worser. Then, God will be fed up with them, He will allow Satan to control over believers, that what Paul says: "...and that man of sin be revealed.." It speaks of Satan shall be revealed in person and visibly. Then, Paul says of verse 4 - "...sitteth in the temple of God.." He means that, Satan will war over the church by persecutions.

    I find the refer verse of 2 Thess. 2:4 is in Rev. 13:6. 2 Thess. 2:4 says, that Satan shall be blasphemy against God. Same with Rev. 13:6 saying that, Satan shall blasphmey against God.

    Notice there are three things of Rev. 13:6, that Satan shall blasphemy against: 1. God 2. God's people in heaven 3. God's TABERRNACLE.

    Does this verse telling us, there will be a literal building of tabernacle in the great tribulation period same in Moses' day in the wilderness?

    No.

    'Tabernacle' of Rev. 13:6 shows the picture as symbol means temple is God's people.

    How do I know? Look next verse - Rev. 13:7 says, Satan shall make a war with saints, speaks of persecution against Christians.

    So, 2 Thess. 2:4 gives us the picture shows us, that Satan shall persecute or war against Christians.

    Look next verse - 2 Thess. 2:5. It says, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Years ago, I was not understand what verse 5 is talkign about. Later, I finally understand what verse 5 is talking about. I found a refer verse wth 2 Thess 2:5 is find in 1 Thess. 3:3-4 say: "That no man should be moved by these afflications: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that WE SHOULD SUFFER TRIBULATION, even as it come to pass, and ye know." This passage is refer as comparing with 2 Thess. 2:5 says, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Clear, 2 Thess. 2:4-5 is speak of Satan shall persecute against Church. This passage CANNOT be pretribulational. Because, Paul tells us, two things must come to pass BEFORE day of Christ occurs- apostasy and the revealed of Satan in person and physical.

    Now, please look 2 Thess. 2:6. It says: "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time." This verse is speaking of things which holding Satan from being to be revealed. That means, Satan cannot be revealed in his time yet, he is now being holding back as restraining.

    Then look next verse 7 says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

    Notice, it says, "for the mystery of iniquity doth already work". It finds refer to 1 John 4:3: "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

    Also, 1 John 2:18 is a refer verse with 2 Thess. 2:7a too.

    My understanding of 2 Thess. 2a is speaking of wicked world system is already working over the world since from Early Church to present day. "The mystery of iniquity" is also picture of Mystery Babylon of Revelation chapter 17.

    Now back to 2 Thess. 2:7.

    "only he who now letteth will let". Word, 'letteth' means restraining or holding back. I looked at Greek translation book -Interlinear Greek-English New Testament(KJV) by Jay P. Green Sr. It is an excellent book. He done good job by translating KJV in Greek language, what Greek actual saying. 2 Thess. 2:7 in Greek says, "only he is holding back now until it comes out of the midst."

    Notice 2 Thess. 2:7 in KJV says, "only he who now letteth WILL LET, until he be taken out of the way." Notice I capitolized words of 'WILL LET", it shows these are shown in italic in KJV of 2 Thess. 2:7 means, it is NOT find in Greek translation. Bible translators added two words unto Englsih Bible(KJV) to make it looks clear up.

    Word, 'letteth' of KJV in 2 Thess. 2:7 looks funny to me and it is not clear. I rather 'letteth' to be use word- 'holding back' from Greek translation than KJV. Because it is more clear and understand what it is talking about.

    So, 2 Thess. 2:6-7 telling us, Satan is now holding back, he cannot be revealed in his time yet, till the time come, then Satan shall be out of the way. Notice last part of 2 Thess. 2:7 says, "...until he be taken out OF THE WAY." In Greek says, "out of the MIDST."

    2 Thess. 2:7b is not talking about rapture, the removal of Holy Spirit, resurrection, second coming. It talks about Satan shall be removed or being to be loosed out of the midst.

    2 Thess. 2:7b is more clear refer with Rev. 17:8 telling us, right now, Satan is in the bottomles sof pit. It doesn't mean he is locked in the bottomless of pit - literal or physical. It is picture means that he is being limited- spiritually. Notice Rev. 17:8b says, "the beast that was, and IS NOT, and YET IS." It speaks of beast is now being holding back or restraining from being to be revealed.

    Also, 2 Thess. 2:6-7 have refer verse find in Rev. 20:1-3. It telling us, Christ have power to hold Satan back from being to deceive the nations. Why? Because of Calvary. Also, Christ already give key to the Church of Matt. 16:18-19 & Matt. 28:18-20; and Acts 1:8, the power from the Holy Spirit to send Church to spread the gospel over the nations. Satan cannot stop Church from spreading the gospel to nations. That why Satan is now holding back from being to be revealed. God is holding Satan from being to be revealed, it is not Satan's time yet. Because God desires want all nations to hear the gospel and to be saved first.

    When God seeing believers are astraying over the world become worsen throughout periods, God is about becoming fed up with believers(2 Peter 3:9), then God knows the right time to come, then God will allow Satan to be loosed out of the midst. Means, Satan shall become man as to be act Messiah.

    Satan will do the same thing to the world, as what Christ done to Israel 2000 years ago. Before Christ came to earth, He was angelic, spirit, have no body. Christ came to earth to became flesh as man. Christ revealed Jews, that He is their Messiah. But, many do not beleive that He is the true Messiah.

    Satan will do the same thing to the world for a little season. Right now, Satan have no body, he is angelic being, and spirit. When the time comes, Satan shall become into flesh as man to be act as Messiah. He shall caused world to worshipping him as God. He shall deceived the world.

    That what 2 Thess. 2:3-12 is talking about.

    2 Thess. 2:6-7 is not talking about rapture, the removal of the Holy Spirit, it is talking the revealed of Satan in person to deceived the world by act be like as Messiah or Saviour as God.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. Mel Miller

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    Tom,

    You present a thought-provoking reality:
    Quote:
    _____________________________________________
    "The church was not formed on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus founded it during His earthly ministry. There were even instances of the operation of the HS during His time on earth".
    ---------------------------------------------
    Indeed, the reality is that He presented the
    "Kingdom of Heaven" while He was on the earth.

    Our friend, ituttut on the End Times thread for 5/19, states that
    Quote_________________________________________
    Scripture shows we either enter into His Body, or we don't. If we don't, we enter into the
    "kingdom" by way of tribulation.
    ______________________________________________

    Ituttut does not agree that Jesus introduced the Kingdom that is NOW the Body of Christ, the Church, WHEN He was on the earth; but that the Mystery of the Body was known only when Paul revealed it for the first time.

    What Jesus revealed while on earth, ituttut claims, was not the same Kingdom revealed by Paul. Ituttut has a Church Body of Christ Now and a Jewish Kingdom that begins with the Tribulation Period INSTEAD of at Christ’s return!!.

    That’s why Dispies like him also believe that entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven was
    “postponed” until the Endtime Tribulation
    starts after the Church is raptured to heaven.

    They refuse to allow the continuance of the Church’s existence on earth even though Peter
    taught that Jesus must “remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things”; and God’s “judgment must begin with the household of believers” and that Paul said “we must enter
    the kingdom through much tribulation”.
    Acts 3:21; I Pet.4:17; Acts 14:22.

    The Dispies "cut short" the End of this Age
    until which Christ promises to be with us
    and also "cut short the times of the Gentiles"
    to support their premise of a Pre-Trib Rapture.

    If anything is clear in Paul's teaching, it is
    that he agrees with Jesus that the "fulness of
    the Gentiles and times of the Gentiles" includes the great tribulation!

    Therefore, the "fulness of the Gentiles" and
    the completion of the Body of Christ awaits
    the *Resurrection of all believers* (at the 7th
    Trumpet, at the 2nd and 3 sounds of the Last Trump, and that the Resurrection precedes the
    moment that Jesus "gathers the elect from earth
    to heaven" and then, according to Jesus and Paul, the angels will complete the "gathering unto Jesus at the Synagogue" in the Sky. Rev.11:18; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

    In fact, Paul agrees and then adds to the "word of the Lord" that He will raise up all believers on the last day, by stating: "The Dead in Christ will arise first"! I Thess.4:16-17.

    Dispies like Ituttut also believe that entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven was “postponed” until the Endtime Tribulation starts after the Church is raptured to heaven.

    Ituttut admits his knowledge of the Book of Revelation is lacking since he states in a
    message on the End Times, May 19, that “What happens with the 7th Trumpet is not for
    us to know”. Perhaps that lack of knowledge explains why he also fails to recognize the
    “appointed time” (Greek) for both Resurrection and Rapture occur with the 2nd and 3rd sounds
    of the 7th (Last) Trump. I Thess.4:16 and Matt.24:31.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  16. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    Satan was once the "chief" angel in heaven, only God/Jesus/Spirit had more "power" than him and because of his "Authority" and "PRIDE", he fell.

    Even "Michael the archangel" didn't challenge Satan's authority directly, but involked the name of the lord.

    Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    And that "Holy Ghost" is the only thing is the world today that still has power over Satan, the "Body of Christ" (church) satan can't prevail over to win souls, we're sealed as much as Jesus was.

    Joh 6:27 which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Leadership by the "law and prophets" (Israel/OT) doesn't function at the same time as leadership by the "Holy Ghost", Which Israel won't accept, (voice of Jesus) this is why Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles, (Holy ghost/rapture),

    Israel will then go back under the "law and Prophets" system, (two witnesses/Moses/Elijah) during the trib period.

    Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)
     
  17. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    npetreley,

    I really like your depth of thought expressed by
    Quote:
    ________________________________________________
    The problem is that most modern translations describe Michael as "standing up" right before the great tribulation. This makes it sound like he rises to defend the people he is assigned to protect. But if that's the case, then why does the great tribulation begin the moment he stands up? If he rises to defend the people, then he obviously fails miserably, since it's only then when all heck breaks loose.

    But the Hebrew can also be translted as "stands still" or "stands down". This would mean that is the moment he STOPS defending the people he is assigned to protect. If this is the more correct translation, his "standing down" is what allows the great tribulation to begin. That would be the basis of a good argument in favor of Michael being the restrainer.
    ________________________________________________

    My thought is that Michael continues to stand up
    for his people through the Two Prophets who
    feed at least 144,000 Jews for 1260 days and no
    one can harm them or these Prophets until their
    task of standing agains the Beast is finished.

    Michael casts Satan from heaven at the same time
    the Ten Kings destroy the failed "restraint"
    of Babylon and God judges Great Babylon for its apostasy as the "restrainer by removing it from the midst of government". For she will "rule the kings of earth a short time". Rev.17:10,18.

    IMO, the apostate restrainer upon which God's judgment comes coincides with the time He puts into the minds of the Ten Kings to support the Antichrist. Rev.17:16-17. That is when the
    7th Head is "wounded and healed" by God removing
    Babylon and Satan indwelling the Beast.

    Instead of Michael as the restrainer, he would
    both continue to "stand up" for his people as the Two Prophets "manifest God's Kingdom Power for 42 months" AND thus prepare His former people to embrace the Messiah at His Presence.

    For it is only at the "fulness of the Gentiles" that Israel will "know their kingdom and their redemption is near and will beg to escape and
    will prevail to stand before the Son of Man"! Rev.12:10,14; Rom.11:25; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:28,31,36.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  18. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    standingfirminChrist,

    I wonder, my friend, if you realize the basis
    for your following quote:
    _____________________________________________
    The Holy Spirit indwells each and every true believer. When the rapture comes, the true believers will be called out. The Holy Spirit will be taken out as well.
    _____________________________________________

    The basis for your view is expressed at 12:55 on this thread by Me4Him:
    Quote:__________________________________________
    Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles, (Holy ghost/rapture). Israel will then go back under the "law and Prophets" system, (two witnesses/Moses/Elijah) during the trib period.
    ________________________________________________

    It is incorrect that the “fulness of the Gentiles” occurs at a Pre-Trib rapture.
    Israel will believe in the Messiah and resume the O T sacrificial system (except for the Day of Atonement) only when Christ returns at the END of the great tribulation.

    The proof for that is not only Rom.11:25-27 but also Luke 21:28,31,34-36 when Christ appears and they “beg (and prevail) to stand before the Son of Man”!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
    Your system is built on the false assumption that God STOPS dealing with
    the Church 3½ years before the start of the great tribulation. No Scripture
    supports this false theory.
     
  19. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    And there's no coming of a "BRIDGROOM" only for his "BRIDE" either, he only comes as "LORD OF THE EARTH".

    Sheee.
     
  20. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Well, the idea that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and that it is taken out of the way by the rapture is no doubt a very feel-good theology promoted by feel-good theologians. It's always nice to think that, because the Holy Spirit lives in us, we're the ones who are holding back evil by our very presence. Of course, one quick look around us should tell you that we're not doing a very good job. But there's no point in tossing any reality into that theory.

    There are countless Biblical problems with the idea that the rapture removes those with the Holy Spirit, which makes Him the restrainer. First, it happens at the wrong time. So you have to rearrange the series of events in order to make that theory stick, which is why the pre-trib rapture is so convoluted and only works if you change a ton of scripture into allegory.

    Second, it magnifies a localized event into a world-wide one. Just read Matthew 24, when Jesus describes what happens. First, there's the abomination of desolation (the revealing of the man of sin, which happens when the restrainer is removed). That introduces the great tribulation, and Jesus says, "those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". And "pray that it doesn't happen on the Sabbath".

    Notice what Jesus does NOT say. "Those who are in New York City flee to Long Island." Heck, He doesn't even say, "Those who are in Rome should flee to Athens." Note also that he doesn't say "Pray this doesn't happen on Sunday while you're at church" or "Pray this won't happen on casual friday when you don't have your good clothing with you."

    The great tribulation is an event that takes place in Israel. Maybe the rest of the world will be affected, but it is Israel-centered.

    So if it's Israel-centered, then all the more reason to think the restrainer is Michael, since Michael's job is to protect Israel. Take Michael out of the way, and Israel loses its protection, and the man of sin is free to do with Israel as he wishes.
     

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