truce to end carnage?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Forever settled in heaven, Aug 5, 2006.

  1. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    well, they finally come up with a plan for a truce ... hopefully it stops the senseless retaliations n killings n pious rationalisations for it all.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060805/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_un
    as it says in Psalm 120 (NET Bible):
    6 I have dwelt too long
    with one who hates peace.

    7 I am for peace, but when I speak, they are for war.

    dona nobis pacem! :flower:
     
    #1 Forever settled in heaven, Aug 5, 2006
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  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    It is, in no way, Israel's responsibility to stop the violence. If Hezbollah wants an end to the violence, it will end. Let them lay down their arms and surrender first, and then Israel will live in peace with those who wish to live in peace with them.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. KenH

    KenH
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    Israel should not agree to a ceasefire unless Hezbollah surrenders and is disarmed. Otherwise, Israel should continue this fight until Hezbollah is totally destroyed.
     
  4. Martin

    Martin
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    ==Putting an end to terrorist and terrorism is not a "pious" rationalisation. The above statement shows how out of touch with the reality of the situation many people are. If there is "peace" now it is nothing more than a deceptive, Tora Bora type peace that only allows the terrorists to regroup and live to target and kill innocent civilians on another day. It would be the same as letting all the murderers out of the prisions because we don't want to keep humans locked up. The world is going to have to get its head out of the sand and face the problem of Islamic Terrorism (and other forms of terrorism...). Part of facing that problem is learning that you can't give terrorists peace deals (etc) because they only view those peace deals as a sign of weakness and as time for them to regroup and plan their next attacks.

    If Israel stops now the terrorists will view that as a victory, and guess who will have given the terrorists their victory...

    ____________________________________

    ==Psalm 120 hardly supports your case because the writer is talking about those who are enemies of God. The writer was willing to have peace with them but they were not willing. Israel is willing to have peace with Muslims (etc) but those in radical Islam (Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc) are not willing. What do groups like that want? They want to wipe Israel off the map. Asaph spoke of the enemies of Israel in his day, and in ours, saying...

    "O God, do not remain quiet;
    Do not be silent and, O God, do not be still.
    For behold, Your enemies make an uproar,
    And those who hate You have exalted themselves.
    They make shrewd plans against Your people.
    And conspire together against Your treasured ones.
    They have said, "Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation,
    That the name of Israel be remembered no more." -Ps 83:1-4

    God will not remain silent as His chosen nation, through whom salvation has come, is attacked by those who reject Him. He has warned that those who bless the descendents of Abraham are blessed, and those who curse them are cursed (Gen 12:3). Those who seek the destruction of Israel will, one day, face the wrath of God (Ps 83:13-18, Zech 14:1-9, Ez 38:14-23, etc).

    Now to the issue of war. Clearly the Bible agrees that there is a time for war (Ecc 3:8). God gave Israel, in the Old Testament, the right and command (at times) to go into battle against His enemies. In the New Tesetament God has given human governments the right to use the sword against evil doers (Rom 13:4). This "right" of government should only be used when necessary. If Israel, or any country, is being attacked by terrorist groups hold up in a neighboring country then Israel has the "right" and "duty" to defend itself. Part of Israel defending itself is it's destroying the enemy who is trying to destroy them, and that is what they are trying to do.

    Israel has a right to defend itself against those who seek its destruction. Anyone who thinks differently is simply wrong.
     
    #4 Martin, Aug 5, 2006
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  5. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    rest my case. :flower:

    again the one-sided view that doesn't recognise evil on both sides. speaking of out-of-touch, has anyone read books like By Way of Deception? things that seem to be aren't always the way they are.

    more of one-sided assumptions.


    o yes, Israel's such a dove. i'm saying perhaps there's 2 sides to this coin.


    really? becos u say so? how does one equate Israel in Asaph's day w the current phenom?

    hmm, i guess Christ must've been mistaken in not equating the Jewry of His day w the true children of Abraham. think abt it ;)

    ah yes, back to the same assumption. but it's sensitive ... they tried to kill Christ when He questioned it. nor was Paul well received for pointing out the concision.

    nobody's questioning the ethics of war, only the measure of propaganda.

    nobody questions the right to self-defence either, for Israel or any other country. but i sense the chosen-people argument kinda goes beyond that.

    :love2:
     
    #5 Forever settled in heaven, Aug 5, 2006
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  6. Martin

    Martin
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    ==One sided arguments? Israel is being attacked by members of Hezbollah and Hamas, and Israel is attacking back. I know that our feel good, postmodern society does not like it when someone fights back against terrorists. However the postmodern strategy of giving in (to some degree) to the terrorists and trying to appease them is a dangerous strategy. Israel is fighting back against those who want to destroy her. That is all one really needs to know. There is no moral equality between Hezbollah and Israel. In this battle Israel has the moral high ground.

    .
    ==The nation of Israel is the nation of Israel, the Jewish state and homeland. The current Israel is, most likely, the Israel spoken of in Bible prophecy (Rom 11:25-32). In fact Scripture is clear that Jesus, when He returns, will fight against those nations who oppose Israel (Zech 14:1-9). The situation in Asaph's day was somewhat like our own...People wanted to wipe Israel off the map. However God has made it clear that, in the end, He will destroy those who have that as their agenda. He will fight against them.

    ==You are mistaken. Jesus was talking to them as individuals who professed to believe in Him but showed, by their attitudes, that they did not believe (Jn 8:31-47). However Jesus certainly did not say that all Jews were children of the devil. The vast majority of Jesus' early followers were Jewish. It is only after the start of Paul's ministry that you see the church start to become mostly gentile. Jesus makes it very clear that "salvation is from the Jews" (Jn 4:22). The modern state of Israel is in unbelief, no doubt, just as they were often in disobedience in the Old Testament. However that does not change the fact that Israel is still the chosen nation. God will not break His promises to Abraham and David about their descendents (Rom 11:29). At a point in the future the Bible is clear that Israel will once again return to their God (Rom 11:26-27).

    The Apostle Paul warned about the dangerous of replacement theology in Romans 11. Has God finally rejected Israel? No (vs1). Has the church replaced Israel? No (vss11-24). On the contrary the church is the wild branch grafted into the root. Will God return to deal with Israel again? Yes (vss24-27). Replacement theology is gentile arrogance.

    "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be...For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead...From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." -Romans 11:11-12,15,28-29

    Let's not fall into the same error those in Rome were falling into.


    ==Israel has a right to defend herself against these people, and that is what she is doing. I would say the same about any country, facing the situation Israel is, on the face of the earth.

    Peace can only be achieved when the terrorists sit in jail or have been destroyed. Until then peace treaties only make the problems worse and show that many still don't understand the dangers.
     
  7. KenH

    KenH
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    You are correct, Martin. Anyone who lumps Israel in with the evil that Hezbollah does is not thinking rationally, IMHO.

    DEATH TO HEZBOLLAH!
    DEATH TO HAMAS!
    DEATH TO AL QAEDA!

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    i'm gonna leave others to elaborate on moral hi grounds :thumbs:
    .

    yes, fr "most likely" to "is" isn't too hard a leap, is it?


    no one's disputing their past n the future. the question is, at which part of the olive tree are the original branches now? what branches are in their place?

    there's no mention of replacement theology in there. but sure, in my Bible he seems to think the original branches r broken off n (for a time) replaced by wild branches. if calling that a replacement offends some, can we call it a "setting aside" or "displacement"? semantics, semantics! :love2:

    i dunno what u're referring to, but Rome rejects the final authority of sola scriptura, which Baptists generally don't.

    seems like some wld like to correct Paul on this, that Israel did NOT stumble or transgress or fail or be rejected or be enemies--how cld they, a chosen people?

    nobody's denying their eventual acceptance, but let's not jump the gun.

    again belabouring an undisputed point. the question shd be, what really does the temporary replacement/displacement/setting aside/(fill in ur fave term) entail (if anything at all)? does it affect national status in any way? how different the restoration of the nation? what's Paul's timing like?

    but neah, i suspect nobody's interested in the "finer details" now ... if only the pro-war juggernaut can charge ahead n "win" their global war on terrorism.

    i thot peace will come when the Prince of Peace cometh. u can't put all terrorists in jail for all time--as long as there's sin n injustice, violence will pop up, n each side will call the other terrorists. not Zionism, not Hezbollah, not the UN or even the USA can alter God's decrees. even tho the Antichrist might effect a false peace for a bit, he won't be able to hold on, n things will only unravel until the appearance of the One whom they pierced.

    :sleeping_2:
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    Israel is without guilt. Hezzbolah is without innocence. Period
     
  10. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    interesting observation in the latest Newsweek, plus the Parable of the Dead Deer:

    check out the rest of the article at [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14066288/site/newsweek/page/2/

    also, this article, in Newsweek, shd (but prob will not for some) give pause to the idea of mutual extermination.

    [/FONT]
     
    #10 Forever settled in heaven, Aug 6, 2006
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  11. rbell

    rbell
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    Militant Islamism is a real and dangerous threat to America.

    Israel is not a threat to America...rather, they are an ally and the only consistent partner we have in that part of the world.

    It's not that hard to understand why most folks side with Israel and hope Hezbollah is demolished.
     
  12. Martin

    Martin
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    ==Replaced? O but you are just a wild branch. Don't boast over the natural branches. Keep in mind that only "some" of them have been removed (Rom 11:17). You don't support the tree. The warnings of Paul in Romans 11 apply today.

    ==I was talking about the Roman Christians Paul wrote to, not the Roman Catholic Church.

    ==Paul is clear..."I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be...God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew...I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the gentiles to make them jealous"

    ==They are still the chosen people. While they are in disobedience at the current time that has not changed their position as a nation. God's gifts and callings are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Therefore the warnings in Genesis 12:3 (etc) still stands.

    ==If you don't think terrorism is a global threat then I tell you what. Let's all sit back, ignore the problem, and do nothing, ok? Then we can sit back and in 25 or so years and wonder why so many US cities are under seige, or under Islamic law, and what happened to Israel, and what about our religious freedom...


    ==Eternal peace will only come when Jesus rules on earth, true. However that does not mean we allow evil doers to run riot. Using the logic you just presented above we should fire all the police, close all the jails, and let everyone go...
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    All the way in with you on this one.
    I saw a newsreel where the top dog of Lebanon was addressing a round table of turbaned sheiks and tears rolling down his cheeks and vomit coming up from the pit of my tummy.

    Here is a guy whom newscasters have carefully stressed was a Christian, who let Hezbollah, whom he probably knows to be a terrorist organization, get a firm foothold on his own country, and now he acts like Israel was the bully who started this fight.

    I wonder if he was crying because he realized he was stupid and spineless ?
     

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