Truth.

All this babble about the meaning of covenant is summed up simply in this.

The dictionary says regarding Biblical covenants:

Said another way,

Unless, of course, you are one who believes that God takes direction from man! In such a case there can be no covenant!

 

(Singer)

Two separate and distinct yet Jesus said "I will not leave you comfortless;
I will come unto you" and we both know it was the Holy Spirit that came
at Pentecost and is the same Holy Spirit that comes to us today to give us
rebirth. That could also be called "receiving the Son" or "having the Son".
There is no other way to have the Son....he cannot be bought or earned.

(Bro Ed)

I'm sorry, but this is not what the Bible says. The Holy Spirit is given a
distinctive identification separate from the One Who is the Living Word.


(Singer)

I've seen discussions aimed at determining if Jesus is God and they always
end up in deadlock.

As for Jesus being the Holy Spirit let me introduce:


1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus was instructing the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentacost and said'' I will
come to you". We all know it was Jesus who said that and it was the Holy Spirit
that came. How can you separate that, Bro Ed?

 

Don't you understand you are all doomed to argue these questions forever, if you reject the inerrant teaching authority of the Church founded by Christ? These truths were revealed over 16 centuries ago to the Church, and still you think your own fallible minds can discover truth unaided! Do you understand how sad this is, to see 2000 years of blind stumbling when the light of truth is here for anybody who conquers their pride and seeks it? Pride or Truth, that is the choice. Come home, brothers and sisters!

 

But the world looks up and sees 33,000 lights. Makes it hard to find the right one. Hmmm, maybe that was the idea...

 

Mike,

Don't you understand you are all doomed to argue these questions forever,
if you reject the inerrant teaching authority of the Church founded by Christ?

Mike, the deadlock is not between Protestants and Catholics of which
I am neither......it is within the bible itself. It's just not clear and because
a determination has been made by the officials of your church 1600 years
ago does not clear up the issue at all. That only locks those within your
"Church founded by Christ" to mimic the teachings of someone else who was
neither appointed or inspired by God to do so.

You should also know that the supposed formation of a "Church founded by
Christ" is just another assessment made by fallible men and is not clearly provided
in the scriptures either.

 

Singer,

Despair is a serious sin, but despair is about the only reaction possible to the God you describe, a God who refuses to provide a certain source of truth, and watches bemused from above as we all make fools of ourselves looking for truth when it cannot be found.

 

Despair is a serious sin, but despair is about the only reaction possible
to the God you describe, a God who refuses to provide a certain
source of truth, and watches bemused from above as we all make fools
of ourselves looking for truth when it cannot be found.


Mike,

Don't play the fool. Pride is the mortal sin that would prevent you from
realizing that Jesus IS the TRUTH that you seek and it will not be
found within the confines of an organization.

 

Oh, OK.

How is it that you can know that Jesus is the Truth, but you can't even know if Jesus is Divine? Lucky for me, my source of truth (and the source of your Bible) knows the answer to both these questions.

 

FAITH alone changes souls, Baptism signifies the change! One cannot be baptized and thereby be saved! However one can have no experience with the waters of baptism and yet have eternal life!

We used to have a saying down South that went like this "He's as full of s - - t as a Christmas Turkey" Every time I read your posts I come away thinking that.

You claim to be "sola scriptura" and then turn around and use phraseology which is not found in the Scriptures. How many times do we have to tell you that the idea of "faith alone justification" cannot be found in Scripture? The only reference to one having faith alone is in James and it is condemnatory.

Please explain the mechanics of how a dip under water, a pouring of water, or a sprinkle of water changes the soul of even one single human being!

Please explain the mechanics of how a PHYSICAL MAN BEING TORTURED ON A PHYSICAL CROSS ON THIS PHYSICAL EARTH HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITUAL REALITY!!

You see, you are really quite inconsistent. And you are a Gnostic also, for you don't believe that this world and its physical substances can be used of God to accomplish what He wishes.

It is not possible to do so, because the "soul" of man is spirit, and spirit is impervious to the natural elements, such as water.

You again show yourself to be a Gnostic because the physical and the spiritual are an integral part of each one of us. We are not, as the Gnostics taught, "noble souls imprisoned in cases of flesh awaiting the day of their liberation" We are beings consisting of body, soul, and spirit. These three parts make up a whole man. Thus, what is done to one of them affects the other two.

Also, there is no Mass whatever that can constrain spirit let alone have a changing effect upon it.

You are telling me that I can take Jesus Himself into my body, have Him unite in love with me in the most intimate way imagineable, and I will remain unaffected?

Suuuuuuuure!!!

Do you sell water front property in Arizona also?

Water is nothing to spirit! Take an unbelieving Astronaut, for example, and put him/her out in space away from "water". That astronaut can have his soul changed without the benefit of water.

No, he does not. His soul is not changed until he is baptized. The Church and the Bible teach that. What is changed is HIS MIND. You are mistaking a change of opinion for a change in the soul. If that is so, then every atheist who goes on the wagon through AA is a Christian because he has "seen da light, brutha!!" After all, his mind is changed and he is not getting drunk anymore, right? So he's a Christian, right?

So, do you care to expound on the mechanics of water changing the soul? Do you care to convince us all that it does? We could start another topic on Baptism just for you to teach us all how water effects the human spirit.

Wouldn't waste my time. There are NUMEROUS fine writings on this issue from the Early Fathers which can be read online. Anyone who wishes to understand may go do so. I have better to do.

Jesus SAVES, There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved!

Jesus is indeed the only Savior. But He uses any means He wishes to save men. And He gave the apostles power and authority to forgive sins. It's in the Bible. You deal with it.

No, friend, I am not Gnostic, my faith is based on belief that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah.

Sure you are. Gnostics believe that Jesus is the Savior and have faith in Him. They just don't believe in the Sacraments because they know that the world is evil and therefore God wouldn't use any part of it to save mankind. And of course, since the world is evil, there is no resurrection. Who wants to live in an "evil fleshly prison" for all eternity.

No priest of any Holy Order saved me.

No priest saved me either. Salvtation is from God alone. But priests are ordained and authorized to forgive sins in Christ's place.

Priest are not deity, they are mere mortals...

This is why I made the comment about a Christmas Turkey. If you are going to argue with Catholics, at least have the decency to find out what we believe. We do not believe the priests are divine. We do not believe that they save men's souls in the same manner that faith in Christ Jesus does. Y

You on the other hand are reliant on the infallibility of the pope, who is a mere mortal, and you will bend to the winds of doctrine coming from his mouth that are found circulating among men.

No, not at all. I spent two years studying the Bible very intensely, and converted to the Catholic Faith not because of the pope or any man, but because I proved the Catholic Faith from the Bible for myself. And in doing so, I join MILLIONS of other believers through the ages who existed long before your particular brand of Protestant rebellon came on stage claiming to be of God.

In so being, you are susceptible to the maneuvering of the False Prophet who will sell your soul cheap to Satan. There is but one true shepherd and that one is Jesus. Hear his voice and obey Him alone!

Rather that you should do such. He established the Church upon the office of St. Peter and promised that the Church would not be overrun by the gates of hell. What do you not understand about that? Your understanding of the Bible (which probably doesn't agree with half of the other Protestants here) is not the final authority on what the Bible teaches. The final authority is the Church, which is the pillar and ground of truth. Any and all teachings you have which are orthodox you recieve from the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church which sat down in councils and hammered out these truths. Many of these councils lasted for DECADES as men sought to get to the truth which others must believe of Christ.

 

Catholic Convert,

You said, 'Many of these councils lasted for DECADES as men sought to get to the truth which others must believe of Christ.'

You seem to indicate that because some aging men nearing senility had some time to waste, makes them free from ecclesiastical faux pas.

I have found the Holy Spirit rather expedient when I have come up with some serious questions. When you study things in context and compare Scripture with Scripture He will guide people into His understanding.

It might be that the collection of bishops went directly to the glorified saints and they were busy worshipping the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It could be that the councils got tied up because of the unending praise surrounding the throne of God. I don't think the saints above have phones, computers or even a bottle in which to place a note for earthly communication. But, we non-Catholics could be wrong.

 

In other words, what you are saying is that the Scriptures are so perspicuous that it shouldn't take long to come to the truth.

Funny, the existence of this board tells me other wise. I don't think the councils were all that long, in fact, I think, given what I see on this board, that they moved along pretty well, given the depth of the questions they were solving. Perhaps the Trinity or the Canon of Scripture seems clear to you having had the benefit of 2000 years of teachings and doctrine to back it up. It was certainly not that clear when the men who defended the truth had to sit down and define it.

There are people on this board who will DIE before changing their minds on what they think the Scriptures say. Many of them. And they disagree with many others on this board who would also die before accepting "heresy".

So much for the perspicuity of Scripture.

 

Catholic Convert

Look for my response.

 

Well due to hardware failure and inability to connect to the net my responses to you are late in coming, but here is the first of 5.

We used to have a saying down South that went like this "He's as full of s - - t as a Christmas Turkey" Every time I read your posts I come away thinking that.

You claim to be "sola scriptura" and then turn around and use phraseology which is not found in the Scriptures. How many times do we have to tell you that the idea of "faith alone justification" cannot be found in Scripture? The only reference to one having faith alone is in James and it is condemnatory.</font>[/QUOTE]Then CatholicConvert, you are as ignorant as that "s - - t" that you accuse me of being full of. I have never said anything about "faith alone justification", that is your doctrinal stance and therefore everything I say you filter through your doctrinal filters. What I have said, and continue with great consistency to say, is "Faith ALONE Salvation"!

Justification is Jesus' domain, and He alone justifies all mankind through His atonement for the sins of the world. Faith is man's domain, and you either have it or you don't.

Faith cannot justify, Jesus' atonement justifies! Man can do nothing to Justify himself before the throne of God. It took Jesus' Sacrificial death upon the cross to Justify man.

Faith SANCTIFIES one to the object of one's faith. I am sanctified through my faith in Jesus, the Christ, therefore I am CHRISTIAN! You are sanctified through your faith in the Pope, therefore you are Catholic.

No CatholicConvert, You do not have the pieces of the puzzle put together yet. You cannot see the picture of what the scriptures (sola Scriptura) are telling you. So go on and keep your spiritual eyes closed and you will never see the picture.

Please explain the mechanics of how a PHYSICAL MAN BEING TORTURED ON A PHYSICAL CROSS ON THIS PHYSICAL EARTH HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITUAL REALITY!!

You see, you are really quite inconsistent. And you are a Gnostic also, for you don't believe that this world and its physical substances can be used of God to accomplish what He wishes.</font>[/QUOTE]Very clumsy dodge CatholicConvert. What does it take for a man to die? A man on a cross is no different than a man dangling from a rope, or standing before a firing squad, or being set upon by marauders and hacked to death with machetes. The truth is Jesus' death and the manner and purpose of his death was foretold several hundred years before it actually happened...We have the record!

You cannot dodge this so you might as well explain the mechanics of how a dip under the water, the pouring of water, or a sprinkling of water causes a change in the human soul.

 

part 2

You again show yourself to be a Gnostic because the physical and the spiritual are an integral part of each one of us. We are not, as the Gnostics taught, "noble souls imprisoned in cases of flesh awaiting the day of their liberation" We are beings consisting of body, soul, and spirit. These three parts make up a whole man. Thus, what is done to one of them affects the other two.</font>[/QUOTE]Talk about ignorant! Know ye not that when the flesh dies the spirit, which continues to live since it is the life of the flesh, departs the dead flesh? Know ye not that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord"? Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ knew that, why do you, in this day of enlightenment, not likewise know this? Or, do you simply ignore those scriptures?

A family, a church body, a denomination, etc., must be the same thing then, for when something happens to any member of one of them the whole is effected. How do you explain that? The church, though physically manifested, is not physical, but rather spiritual for when the spirit leaves the church it becomes a spiritually dead social club. You may think these things gnostic, but that is simply because you do not hold the truth!

You are telling me that I can take Jesus Himself into my body, have Him unite in love with me in the most intimate way imagineable, and I will remain unaffected?

Suuuuuuuure!!!

Do you sell water front property in Arizona also?</font>[/QUOTE]Cute CatholicConvert, You do have real trouble with your theology of flesh, flesh, and nothing but the flesh! If you understood spirit, you would know what the scriptures that say, "there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God" means. Even when one is in the deepest coal mine, or in a space ship to Andromeda, there is no separation from God, for nothing no mass, no distance, nothing, can separate us.

I am telling you that nothing whatever can block our love for God and especially His love for us. Spirit cannot be inhibited in any manner by mass of any kind.

 

Part 3

No, he does not. His soul is not changed until he is baptized. The Church and the Bible teach that. What is changed is HIS MIND. You are mistaking a change of opinion for a change in the soul. If that is so, then every atheist who goes on the wagon through AA is a Christian because he has "seen da light, brutha!!" After all, his mind is changed and he is not getting drunk anymore, right? So he's a Christian, right?</font>[/QUOTE]Repentance from that which harms one does not make one a Christian. Repentance from sin does not make one a Christian. Anyone can repent from sin! A Christian is one who believes in the Christ and places his Trust in the Christ, and Lives his life in accordance with the Teachings of the Christ. That is why you are Catholic, you have given your life over to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

It did not take water to make you a Catholic, it took a change in your beliefs. The astronaut out in deep space who is persuaded to change, and who places his faith in Jesus, the Christ and confesses Jesus to be the Christ becomes a Christian at the moment his beliefs changed...water, or no water.

Wouldn't waste my time. There are NUMEROUS fine writings on this issue from the Early Fathers which can be read online. Anyone who wishes to understand may go do so. I have better to do. </font>[/QUOTE]You do not know for yourself, that is why you trust the writings of others, nor do you care enough that others know, for if you did, you too would know for yourself. If you knew, you would not hesitate to tell the world how the water changes the soul of man. You are simply being ignorant of the truth.

Jesus is indeed the only Savior. But He uses any means He wishes to save men. And He gave the apostles power and authority to forgive sins. It's in the Bible. You deal with it.</font>[/QUOTE]God's Word tells us that God uses only one method to save man, and that is the faith of the man in Him and in His only Begotten Son Jesus.

Now David stealing another man's wife is also in the bible should we all put that into practice?

God gave us all the power to forgive sins, the trouble is we do not practice that which God has given us all, as a duty, to do. We all are empowered by God to do the things that Jesus did, we simply do not have sufficient faith to do so, because we are not completely and totally sold out to Jesus. We are content to think that Jesus only gave that power to his Apostles and their successors. Do not be ignorant CatholicConvert, we who believe in Jesus, are the successors of the Apostles! Anyone who will take up his cross daily and follow Jesus is an Apostle of Jesus.

 

Part 4

Sure you are. Gnostics believe that Jesus is the Savior and have faith in Him. They just don't believe in the Sacraments because they know that the world is evil and therefore God wouldn't use any part of it to save mankind. And of course, since the world is evil, there is no resurrection. Who wants to live in an "evil fleshly prison" for all eternity.</font>[/QUOTE]First, God does not save those who perform the sacraments of the church! Such is not the substance of salvation!

Next, I believe in the Sacraments, I simply do not assign the performance of sacrament worship the power that you do. The sacraments performed in the physical church are physical symbology of actual events that take place in the spirit realm. I do not believe the world is evil, but I do believe there is the power of evil in the world just as there is the power of God in the world. I do not believe that God uses his creation to "SAVE" mankind, I believe that God uses His Holy Word to reach the mind of man, persuading him to believe in, and thus receive Salvation from God. I believe in a resurrection, just not in the same manner that you do. So that makes me a gnostic? Not at all!

No priest saved me either. Salvtation is from God alone. But priests are ordained and authorized to forgive sins in Christ's place.</font>[/QUOTE]Salvation is a free gift of God to those who believe in Jesus, and we are, ALL of us, commanded to forgive sins. We are, ALL of us, commanded to confess our sins, so that they can be forgiven and cleansed unto righteousness. That does not change the fact that there no priest, from any Holy Order, can save.

This is why I made the comment about a Christmas Turkey. If you are going to argue with Catholics, at least have the decency to find out what we believe. We do not believe the priests are divine. We do not believe that they save men's souls in the same manner that faith in Christ Jesus does. Y</font>[/QUOTE]It is not what you believe that triggered my response, it is what you posted that I responded to. If you do not believe it, don't post it!

 

Part 5

No, not at all. I spent two years studying the Bible very intensely, and converted to the Catholic Faith not because of the pope or any man, but because I proved the Catholic Faith from the Bible for myself. And in doing so, I join MILLIONS of other believers through the ages who existed long before your particular brand of Protestant rebellon came on stage claiming to be of God.</font>[/QUOTE]I have studied the bible for Decades, and have great respect for others who do the same, however, when one posts declarations of "infallibility of a human being" as a significant part of his/her personal beliefs, that raises the red flag of falsehood. When one posts that the mother of Jesus is the perpetually virgin "Queen of Heaven", that red flag of falsehood goes up. When one posts that water changes, or transforms spirit, the red flag of falsehood goes up. When one claims that a simple wheat wafer transubstantiates into the real flesh of long ago crucified, buried and resurrected and ascended physical body of the Christ, the red flag of falsehood is raised. It is not gnosticism to ask for evidence, nor is it gnosticism that causes one to reject those claims.

Rather that you should do such. He established the Church upon the office of St. Peter and promised that the Church would not be overrun by the gates of hell. What do you not understand about that? Your understanding of the Bible (which probably doesn't agree with half of the other Protestants here) is not the final authority on what the Bible teaches. The final authority is the Church, which is the pillar and ground of truth. Any and all teachings you have which are orthodox you recieve from the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church which sat down in councils and hammered out these truths. Many of these councils lasted for DECADES as men sought to get to the truth which others must believe of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]CatholicConvert, I do not argue against the church that has been with us since Jesus established it upon the truth that He, Jesus, is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Rock of ages upon which the OHCA Church is built! All who believe that simple truth and make the confession of that truth are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church regardless of whether or not they are baptized in/with water. It is the confession of who and what Jesus is that determines ones part in that OHCA church. It matters not that one is aligned under Rome, but that one is aligned under Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.

The Body of Christ is the physical extension of the life of Jesus, it is the physical arms and legs that take the Gospel of Jesus, the Christ to the world.

The Bride of Christ is the Spiritual church that is not visible to the naked human eye. The bride of Christ is comprised of those who confess Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah, and live their lives accordingly, keeping their lamps trimmed and well oiled, keeping their garments spotless.

Both the Body and the Bride of Christ are covered by OHCA! However there are many in the Body of Christ that are not in the Bride of Christ. There are many in the Body of Christ who go through the motions of "being Catholic", "being Baptist", "being Methodist", etc, who will be separated into the goat pen, and cast into the lake of fire simply because they lacked the faith in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah that would have sanctified them into the sheep pen and eternal life.

It is not the church group you associate with that matters, it is the person of Jesus the son of God, the Messiah, that makes ALL the difference in this world, that provides one with eternal life in the next phase of eternity.

I am just as much OHCA as you are without all the dogmatic trappings that man, in his councils, has deemed necessary to salvation into the sheepfold. Jesus said to Nicodemus "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life". He did not say, "whosoever joins the Roman Catholic church ...", He did not say, "whosoever is baptized....", He did not say, "whosoever accepts the edicts of the Pope..." And, He did not say..."whosoever believes in my mother..."

It is difficult for me to withhold comment regarding your accusations of me being Gnostic. You have opened your self up for all kinds of similar type of accusations.

 

Jesus said to Nicodemus "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not
perish, but have everlasting life". He did not say, "whosoever joins the
Roman Catholic church ...", He did not say, "whosoever is baptized....", He
did not say, "whosoever accepts the edicts of the Pope..." And, He did not
say..."whosoever believes in my mother..."

Whoever said this was preaching good. This spiritual food and truth is much too rich for the Roman Catholic palate, until they come to believe that what Jesus has said, is authorative rather than their traditional views and their myriad of 'family trinkets and idols.'

 

Worship or Prayer of Mary = Sin, not biblical

Just to be Catholic = by doctrine, not biblical

Follow the Pope over scripture = Not biblical (in any case)

"whosoever is baptized....",

Hmmmm,..., Even though I am not Catholic by faith or tradition, I would have to totally disagree with you here.

If I were an unbelieving person of Gods words, I would have a problem with the case you are making with this ONE scripture.

This ONE scripture by itself will be correct if this one scripture incorporates everthing Jesus taught about believing in HIM. But sadly it doesn't.

This scriputre also does not say you must believe in GOD.

It also don't say the other things Jesus said:

1. "Repent or parish" Luke 13:5

2. "Make disciples and baptized THEM" Matthew 28:18-20

3. "Believe the Truth and be set FREE (from sin) John 8:31-32

4. "Love as I have loved you" John 13:34-35

5. "No one can enter the Kingdom of GOD unless he is born of water and the Spirit." John 3:5

6. "IF ANYONE comes to me and does not hate his parents and family and self, cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and FOLLOW me cannot be my disciple"

How come when it comes to belief/faith you never quote Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not bleieve will be condemned."?

OR

Colossians 2:12 "having been buried with him in baptism AND raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

This is Pauls point about Christ convenant of Heart circumcision vs the Physical convenant of the Law