Two Baptist Views Combined - my view

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 9, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Many Baptists here would probably agree with Christ's teaching in Mark 7:6-13 that the Commandments of God cannot be edited. And almost all Baptists agree that Christ was raised from the dead on the FIRST day of the week - Sunday.

    I agree with them on that point as well.

    Another Baptist view is found in the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 - that the TEN Commandments are in fact the moral law of God, were given in Eden, are written on the heart under the NEW covenant and are applicable to the saints today - and as D.L. Moody and Andy Stanley point out - breaking even one of them is a serious matter.

    I believe BOTH of those positions. (Or guess technically THREE positions stated above)

    The bottom line is that when you combine BOTH of those Baptist positions (or all THREE) - you have mine.

    Thoughts - with Bible texts to support?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, May 9, 2013
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  2. Salty

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    Are you refering to the Garden of Eden?
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    We are not under law, but Grcae
    Under the New, not old coveannt
    Grace existed before the Law even was given to man
    jesus kept in full the Law before God, so when in Him, I have kept all the requirements of the law, as God justifies me based upon Him seeing me as rightous as jesus, clothed in him!

    God saves us by Grace alone, thru faith alone!

    Do you affirm that central truth?
     
  4. BobRyan

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    When you read the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 what do you see in regard to the Garden of Eden?

    Combining this with Christ's teaching in Mark 7 fact that the Law of God cannot be edited or bent - you either accept it (un bent, un edited) or reject it as applicable to the saints - ( a Bible teaching that I think a lot of Baptists do agree with)

    We have "my view".


    "Do we then made void the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid! Rather we establish the Law" Rom 3:31.

    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:2-3

    Ex 20:7 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My Commandments.

    John 14:15 "if you love Me KEEP My Commandments"


    Romans 6

    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


    "sin is transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4
    "these things I write to you - that you sin not" 1John 2:1

    Matt 5
    17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
    18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
    19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, May 9, 2013
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  5. BobRyan

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    Are you asking this question because you don't think that the Baptist Confession of Faith addresses it???

    The ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-11 - applicable in all ages is "Saved by Grace through Faith and that not of works".

    We all knew that -- right?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    asking if YOU affirm that we are justified before God solely by that, not keeping the Sabbath, law, dietary rules etc!
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Those who wish to "circle back" to the case of the lost and ask how a lost person becomes saved - will always get the same answer from me.

    "For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of works lest anyone should boast"

    This has been the ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-11 for the lost in all of time - in every age of fallen mankind.

    However the Baptist Confession of Faith goes beyond the case of just being interested in what a lost person needs to do - it actually deals with the subject of how a saved person should live.

    And there they agree with Paul "what matter is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - which is the moral law of God according to the Baptist Confession of Faith - the TEN Commandments (all TEN not just a downsized nine or none).

    Christ said that the two great foundational commandments upon which all others stand is Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your hear" -- but a lost person cannot even do that such that they "save themselves" - for no Law was ever given as a means of salvation.

    Some people are soooo focused on the state of the lost in relation to the Law that they will ask to hear this - over and over and over.

    And I am happy to share it -- again.

    Baptists have free will just like anyone else and so some of them may choose to war against their own Baptist Confession of Faith when it comes to these specifics. I simply do not choose to do that (and of course - I am not Baptist)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, May 10, 2013
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  8. Yeshua1

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    Are we eternally justified before God when saved, or on a conditional/probationary basis?
     
  9. BobRyan

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    OSAS is not a Bible doctrine. - Rather in Matt 18 Christ teaches "forgiveness revoked" as does Paul in Roman 11, and Gal 5:4 and Hebrews 6 and Ezekiel in Ezek 18.

    That is not the surprising part.

    What IS surprising is that the Baptists also have a statement about OSAS not being true.

    ============================================

    5. That GOD before the Foundation of the World hath Predestinated that all that believe in him shall-be saved, (Ephesians 1:4, 12; Mark 16:16) and al that believe not shall be damned, (Mark 16:16) all which he knew before. (Romans 8:29) And this is the Election and reprobation spoken of in the Scriptures, concerning salvation, and condemnation, and not that GOD hath Predestinated men to be wicked, and so to be damned, but that men being wicked shall be damned, for GOD would have all men saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, (1 Timothy 2:4) and would have no man to perish, but would have all men come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) and wills not the death of him that dies. (Ezekiel 18:32). And therefore GOD is the author of no mans condemnation; according to the saying of the Prophet. (Hosea 13). Thy destruction O Israel, is of thy self, but thy help is of me.


    6. That man is justified only by the righteousness of CHRIST, apprehended by faith, (Romans 3:28. Galatians 2:16) yet faith without works is dead. (James 2:17)


    7. That men may fall away from the grace of GOD, (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received &acknowledged, (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, &of the powers of the world to come. (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein &overcome. (2 Peter 2:20). That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). And therefore let no man presume to think that because he hath, or had once grace, therefore he shall always have grace: But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

    http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/helwysconfession.htm

    ===================

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    So in affirmation of that historic Baptist document quoted above - regarding the lack of Bible support for OSAS - we have

    ===============================


    So in Matt 18 Christ reminds us of this fact with His illustration of "forgiveness revoked".

    "I forgave you ALL of that debt" is the up front claim.


    The question in debate is this -- in God's OWN decision "to So love the world that HE GAVE His only begotten son" - (Not a matter of a legal bind on God) did he then "make him to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 in such a way as to legally obligate himself to take EVEN those who "do NOT PERSEVERE firm unto the end"?

    According to the Bible - He did not.

    According to the Bible it is ONLY those who "PERSEVERE firm unto the end" that will be saved.

    Matt 24:13
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Heb 3:14

    14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,



    Hence Romans 2.

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    That is the Gospel itself as Paul just stated.

    it works on the same "Forgiveness revoked" model as Matt 18

    Matt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.




    It works on the same model as Romans 11



    Romans 11


    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    Our Methodist/Wesleyan/Seventh-day Adventist/Arminian friends will notice that the language above is missing the "legally obligated to take those who do not persevere firm to the end" to heaven language.

    Just as we see in Ezek 18 - no change.

    The whosoever will factor is there - as well as the warning against being the rock-ground that sprin[SIZE=3]gs up "to LIFE" and [SIZE=3]rec[SIZE=3]e[SIZE=3]ives the Word of [SIZE=3]Life quick[SIZE=3]ly and with [SIZE=3]joy - but then [SIZE=3]later falls aw[SIZE=3]ay - dying - returning to the dead state Matt 1[SIZE=3]3.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    And I am very interested in the fact that the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith - admits that the Sabbath Commandment is to be admitted to - in Genesis 2:2-3 instead of denied.
    [FONT=&quot]http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19 [/FONT]

    =================================

    THE LAW OF GOD

    19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
    (1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (2) Gen 2:16-17
    (3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12
    19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai2 in ten commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
    (1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
    (2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Notice that the ten commandments are placed in the NEGATIVE - "not" and are therefore inferior to the greater principle of "love." They are designed for the fallen nature to repress and restrain it.

    The ten commandments simply tell you what NOT to do but do not instruct us what we should do. The higher law of love is designed for the new nature.

    Furthermore, the law is LIMITED as individually expressed and applied. However, the high principle of Love is not limited to any expression or circumstance.

    Moreover, the Scriptures plainly tell us we are "not under the law" but under grace. We are not saved by law but by grace. We are not justified by law but by grace. We are not sanctified by law but by grace - "as you received the Lord Jesus Christ so walk ye in him."

    Finally, no fallen human being can ever measure up to the standard of righteousness required by the negative ten commandments - sinless perfection - not guilty of defiling one point but keeping every point (James 2:10-11). Neither can the redeemed man keep that standard (Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:16). However, the positive principle of love covers a multitude of sins, as it is not diminished by ommission (only deminished by intentional sin) but rather finds its value in positive motive irregardless of imperfect execution. It does not excuse sin but it can be expressed in spite of sins of omission.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, May 26, 2013
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  13. BobRyan

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    In vs 6 of the Ten Commandments we are told to "Love God and KEEP His Commandments".

    In John 14:15 Jesus said that we are to "Love Him and Keep His Commandments".

    In John 15:14 Jesus said - again - to Love Him and KEEP His Commandments.

    In Rev 14:12 John says that the Saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    And of course in the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 - there is perfect agreement with this Bible idea - as they say that this IS the "Moral law of God" given to all of mankind in Eden and binding still upon mankind to this very day.

    =====
    Baptist Confession of Faith - (C.H. Spurgeon edited version)

    [FONT=&quot]. The Law of God [/FONT]

    • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
    • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
    • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end,cancelled them and took them away.
    • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
    • The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
    • Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
    • The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.
    ===============================
    "Yes" some will say "but we are at war against our own Baptist Confession of Faith" - and I certainly do not deny anyone the right to choose to have that in-house debate.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, May 26, 2013
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  14. Salty

    Salty
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    You know, Bob, I might consider reading your posts if you would use regular fond AND make your posts a bit shorter.
     
  15. Bro. James

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    There are some who are fond of fonts. They have a right to Mars Hill too.

    Yes, brevity of speech and pen is an admirable talent--with the exception of filibustering. When all is said and done, more is said than done.

    Broad phylacteries will not keep one out of the pit.

    Only Jesus resolves the spiritual gridlock evident since Shem, Ham and Japheth.

    Salvation is of the Lord.

    Even so, come Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
  16. BobRyan

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    the length of my prior post was due to the content of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and not my own word. Your complaint then is that you do not like reading your own confession of faith - presumably because you find in it something that supports my statements.

    To help you in that regard - I highlighted a few words in red - so that those who are reluctant to read would not be stressed out having to read through all the words. If you count those words "in red" it shortens the post considerably.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Salty

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    Are you sure that is MY confession of Faith?

    Some of it I agree with - some I don't

    Again - as I stated before - there is no one "Baptist Confession of Faith"
    Even our own Southern Baptist Faith and Messages - all SBC churches do not accept it in its entirety as "gospel".
    There are some 3 dozen + Baptist denomination - and they all have different beliefs.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    On the contrary -

    The Bible view - is in fact the best of both - and leaves their errors in the dust.

    The view that says
    1. Ten Commandments are the moral law of God.
    2. Were given to mankind in Eden.
    3. Included the 7th day Sabbath - Saturday.
    4. Sabbath still applicable today for the saints.

    Is combined with the view that says.
    1. You cannot bend or edit the Sabbath to point to Sunday.
    2. The sunday keeping of today is not Sabbath it is tradition.

    ---

    Here is D.L. Moody affirming key points in the first view above.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86136&page=2


    Here you are affirming key points in the second view above -

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=87193&page=26


    And so I take the "part" of that view that does hold water when it comes to a sola scriptura test - and leave the rest as error.

    Same with the first view above.



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Jul 22, 2013
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  19. BobRyan

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    1. Moody vehemently opposes "Sabbath breakers" in his sermon - read it.
    DWIGHT L. MOODY

    The Ten Commandments:
    Exodus 20:2-17

    .
    The Fourth Commandment
    Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

    THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales?Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

    "
    The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

    It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with
    the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stoneat Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.
     
  20. DHK

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    Quit while you are ahead. Not one of the Baptist "views" represent your view, and both of them combined come no where close to your view. You misrepresent both of these confessions. You take statements out of their context and then you redefine them according to SDA terminology. That isn't even ethical.

    If you are going to discuss the Sabbath it would be wiser for you to do so, from the Bible and not from a confession. Many of us do not follow these confessions ourselves. They are irrelevant to us to a good degree. There is "no Baptist confession of faith." All Baptists believe in sola scriptura, and doctrine should be based on that and that alone.
     

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