Two Lips

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Darrell C, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Okay, this is not a Calv/Arm debate, so anyone wanting to turn it into that needs to go start their own thread.

    Secondly this is for particularly general Baptists, as I wanted to avoid the confusion that can sometimes arise when leadership comes around, so I would ask that the Moderators and Administration refrain from posting in this thread.

    In view is the phenomena we see in Forum Discussion where one thing is said yet something else entirely is what is being said. For example, we might consider Two Lips position on the "Perseverance of the Saints." Does Two Lips mean that Saints will persevere because God enables them to? Or because they have to? I ask that question just to give an example of the premise of the OP, though there are multiple issues we could discuss in Two Lips basic premises.

    So that's the gist of the OP.


    God bless.
     
  2. JamesL

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    ??
    I don'tget the gist of it.

    But I will say as I have before...Calvinists are nithing but Arminians in disguise.

    The proof is the subjection of any man, in any scenario of faith and works (or lack thereof), to both systems.

    The Calvinist and Arminian will agree as to his eternal fate, every single time. Bar none. Without any exceptions.

    So that begs the question....How in the world can two camps, diametrically opposed at virtually every single point, both lead to the same conclusion about every person?

    Makes the whole fight seem awful silly
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    It's lucky for you that I am not a Moderator, or I would delete your post, James.

    Oh, wait, no I wouldn't, because that would be an abuse of the power I would be entrusted with, and seem more like the leadership of a regime set on having only their truth available.

    ;)

    Okay, seriously, the OP has a two-fold purpose, but there is a valid purpose behind the humor (and if you don't get it I am not going to tell you, because it is depressing to have to explain one's own humor): and you seem to have got that part of it.

    Basically we are looking at saying one thing that is something else, which can also be seen as saying the same thing though one states it is different. The OP in fact does this very thing, and some might view it as passive aggression whereas I see it humor and yanking chains.

    The good news is that we should be able to speak freely on the subject, because I have asked that Moderators refrain from posting in this thread, as it is between those of us not in leadership positions here (Pastors and Ministers are not excluded, their leadership is not on tis forum but in the real world).

    There is a bit of a word play on TULIP's (Two Lips) teachings, however, the thread is not designed to speak about TULIP specifically. The example given is Perseverance of the saints, which in it's title actually implies the persevering of the saints themselves, though it is taught as meaning God's preservation. One question: why not take R.C. Sproul's advice and change the P? To preservation, that is.

    Okay, hope that helps in clearing up the OP, and I will address your further comments in the next.


    Continued...
     
  4. Darrell C

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    Not sure I would agree with that, because again, I don't think how many today teach or understand the view Arminnius taught as identical to what Arminus actually taught. Once again, the Two Lips phenomena.


    I am just guessing here, James, but are you referring to the faith ascribed by Calvinists after they are regenerated to believe (in their doctrinal view, not mine)?


    You would need to exapnd on this, as I am not sure what you are referring to.


    There are a number of shared beliefs between the two camps, so I am not sure why Eternal Destiny stands out for you. Perhaps you could expand on this.


    What makes it even sillier is that both groups are in serious error as to how the natural man can understand, believe, repent, place faith in Christ, and be born again. That is what is so sad. And even sadder, we see so many people desperate to be a part of a group who, instead of gaining beliefs of their own through Bible Study, simply embrace Systems of Theology and then go to Scripture in an attempt to validate beliefs they adopted.

    And I think we are both in violation of the request of the OP, because we are not being particularly general Baptists.

    ;)

    (not going to explain that one either)


    God bless.
     
  5. HankD

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    My objection to "perseverance" is that it has a small nuance of the hint of failure.

    Preservation - ??

    something more along the lines of the imperishablility of the saints?


    HankD
     
  6. Alcott

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    Two Lips?

    Oh, this must be Jeopardy.
    The answer is:

    What does a person need to annunciate B's and P's?
     
  7. Darrell C

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    Yes, a sense of humor is required in this thread.

    (keep working at it)

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  8. JamesL

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    P is for "Potentially Saved"

    If you don't endure to the end, you find that your faith was spurious. In other words...you're only Potentially Saved unless you add works - just like the Arminian

    Uh, oh. This is a humor thread, so I have to add...
    LOL
     
  9. HankD

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    Uh, I would add the word "eternal" to it - eternal perseverance, however that gives rise to two issues (at least).
    First it messes up TULIP - TULIE and a lot of folks theology could possibly go down the drain.
    Also there is still that nuance of failure involved with "perseverance" and one could simply wait until eternity ran its course to see if all had persevered.

    HankD
     
    #9 HankD, Jun 12, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
  10. Darrell C

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    It would depend on who was teaching it. R.C. Sproul thinks it should be changed to Preservation so that the confusion that arises as to what is meant by perseverance is eliminated. Most I have heard teach it, Sproul being one of them (love to listen to that guy, lol, don't agree with him on a number of things but there is much that can be gained from his teaching style), teach God's Sovereignty in preservation, meaning, the saints persevere because God makes that the case, rather than the saints' effort/s.

    But how a teaching translates from the teacher to the student is often how misconceptions about antagonists arise. From pulpit to pew to public, there can be a vast difference in what is being taught.


    God bless.
     
  11. TCassidy

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    P = Perseverance of the saints.

    The saved will remain saved, not because of any merit in them, but because they are preserved by the power of God. Jude 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.
     
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  12. Darrell C

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    Perseverance already carries the "eternal" in it and this is something that is desperately denied by some. The hatred for OSAS has been the basis for division for a long time, lol.

    But that might play into the "Two Lips Phenomena," where the understanding of OSAS is taught differently by those who embrace it, and those who deny it. We're familiar with the first, the second being "OSAS teaches that we have a License to sin," which is usually the false argument offered by those who reject OSAS, a well as the P.

    But I don't teach TULIP, just try to teach JESUS, lol. And no-one can make a four letter word out of that (man I hope someone gets that).


    God bless.
     
  13. Darrell C

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    No moderators, please. this is a thread for the lowly.


    God bless.
     
  14. HankD

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    good point Darrel, just how long does eternity last? "I give unto them eternal life".

    We don't have a license to sin but a pardon from sin.

    Ya, I did a scan of "Tulip" in the Bible and came up with "Cannot be found".

    HankD
     
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  15. JamesL

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    The whole doctrine is really a cop-out. All the focus is put on what the "potential" believer is doing. Even being told to work out his own salvation.

    I've heard MacArthur and the likes screaming that from the pulpit.

    But if YOU don't work it out, it's supposedly because God never began a good work in you (another scripture horribly butchered out of context - Phil 1:6)

    Without works all the way to the end, you are counted as a reprobate, false professor, and one who will be told Christ never knew you.

    And all the Protestant Confessions plainly state that the end of your good works is eternal life.

    So in one way, it depends on who teaches it, but depends more on whether they're faithful to the Protestant faith they claim to believe
     
  16. Darrell C

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    You are confusing Eternal Security with your own perception of what it means.

    When we "work out our own salvation" it is not salvific in context, it is related to the progressive sanctification process.

    There is a difference in the "perfecting of the saints" (progressive) and being made perfect by One Sacrifice forever (positional).

    You should know this, James.


    No, you haven't heard MacArthur "screaming" works-based salvation from the pulpit. I would suggest, whatever sermon you heard, you go back and listen to it again.

    MacArthur has been a stanch defender of Sola Fide for years, standing against ecumenical movements that sought to join together, and in doing so, ignore the dramatic difference in our views concerning works.


    And that is not his, or any other teacher who understands the difference between progressive and positional sanctification's view.

    It cannot be denied that there are evidences that one is not saved. Christ taught this, and the Apostles taught this. The lack of evidence for salvation is the reason why we say that those who do not continue in the faith were never saved to begin with. It is a Biblical Doctrine, not an human one.


    The focus is on works. The focus should be on faith. The elderly believer that stops going to Church, and stops ministering, because they are no longer physically able to...is a good example. No works are required on their part for their faith to still be in evidence. Hebrews gives a good example of those who were never saved, because they don't stop "going to church," but they withdraw from the purpose of going to Church, which is faith in Christ. That is what is in focus.

    Then find a Protestant to debate it with, lol.


    Bingo. You just changed the focus of faith.

    That is why you are confusing faith with works, and how each relate to Biblical teachings concerning the evidences of true faith versus a religious mindset, which, because that mindset believed salvation was of works..can stop evidencing faith.

    Because it was never faith in Christ to begin with, it was faith in a religious vehicle they believed evidenced faith.

    So when you distinguish between saving faith and the faith that grows in progressive sanctification, you will see, one is bestowed by God in the salvation of the individual, the other relates to our walk in the temporal.

    There is quite a bit in Scripture that speaks to this, James. The concept uses imagery of good and bad trees, true and false wheat, and the underlying issue is that they...are seen together. There is a way to distinguish between genuine faith and that which is not. And one of the evidences that one's faith in Christ is genuine is that their faith continues. Usually when one has faith...there is fruit. But just like awe do not compare the fruit of a sapling with that of a mature tree, even so we do not expect babes to be producing fruit in the same manner. Christ spoke of pruning, that more fruit might be produced. We can also look at the effect of chastening...for our profit.

    We don't separate faith from works in a progressive sanctification process, but, we do in the positional sanctification process. And those two have to be distinguished so that we do not, like some, end up with a view that denies Sola Fide. Our Eternal Security is based on Sola Fide, but, our relationship with Christ while we walk in this world is based on obedience. Would you admit that a Christian that is disobedient to the Lord will see his relationship with the Lord suffer> I can say from experience that this is true.


    God bless.
     
  17. HankD

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    OK, for me TULIP is a shorthand acrostic to help remember the salient points of calvinism.
    It does lend itself to confusion of the issues of the acrostic.

    To repeat, FWIW, I don't identify myself as a calvinist, I guess that makes me a mugwump.

    especially RE: "Unconditional election" and "Limited Atonement".

    OK, don't throw me into the Lake of Fire just yet!

    Ephesians 1
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    So the conditions of this inheritance and predestination in my mind were established at this counsel of the Triune God of which we don't have privy information apart from the fact that we were/are hopeless on our own, helpless and without the ability to save ourselves from His wrath and eternal separation from Him.

    IMO, This passage show us the purpose but not the criteria (for lack of a better term) of elected individuals.

    Yes, I know, it leaves a door open for Arminians (criteria: He knew who would believe).
    I'm not sure I accept that but since with God all things are possible I include that possibility along with aggressive selection, infralapsarianisn, supralapsarianism... these are also very difficult with which to grapple.
    I just don't know where I stand - closer to DoG.

    The fruit of the Spirit in flesh beings as a witness to the glory of God is the purpose.

    Limited atonement - OK Christ's death was propitiation for the sin of all mankind.
    restitution/reconciliation - that's another issue.

    HankD the mugwump.
     
  18. JamesL

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    I need for you to go back and read your own post with several tidbits in mind:

    You keep using Eternal Security interchangeably with OSAS, but there is a brand of Eternal Security which despises the teaching of OSAS. That's because OSAS is (or at least was) a particular viewpoint within the confines of Protestantism which erroneously states (as you have) that trees bearing fruit, etc, pertain to faith and the inevitability of works. And to that bunch, our assurance is found in our works. But those who (or used to) use exclusively Eternal Security are wholeheartedly against the notion of self-appointed fruit inspectors. Eternal Security teaches that our assurance is found in Christ and His cross. There is a difference

    You also keep mentioning "positional" perfection against all scriptural teachings. Our perfection is a reality, an actuality, and a literal accomplishment of the blood of Christ. OT saints were "positionally" righteous. It was merely credited to them. But when Jesus died and His blood was split, the "positional" was done away with. The positional was under the Law. The reality is found in Christ. If your righteousness goes no further than "positional' then you simply are not born again. By His stripes we are healed. Literally, not positionally.

    And I didn't change the focus of faith, I was speaking about those who may or may not teach what is taught in the system they embrace. For instance, the guy here who calls himself Protestant. I called him out for being soft on Matthew 10:22 "he who endures to rhe end will be saved." According to his faith, the end means the end. Not 5 minutes before the end, or even 3 second before the end. But he espoused a view which gave allowance for premature failure. He was not being faithful to his own faith. That's what I meant
     
  19. Darrell C

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    There is no difference between OSAS and the Doctrine of Eternal Security, except when the nay-sayers create false arguments like you are doing here.

    That you deny the teaching of the fruit being evidence of what is a good tree and what is an evil tree speaks volumes.

    Just because you want to define what Eternal Security means and impose false arguments to define the errors of OSAS doesn't change the fact that we are Once Saved Always Saved, because salvation is a one-time event in the life of the believer. THat sanctification process has nothing to do with works, nor is salvation maintained through works.


    I hardly need a lecture from you about perfection, James. If you understood Perfection you would not make such a silly statement.

    Again the perfecting of the Saints is a separate issue from Perfection, and deals with Progressive Sanctification. It does not impact salvation, it impacts our walk with Christ, and deals with the reward, or lack of reward we will receive when we are judged.

    And when you understand perfecting of the Saints which applies to the temporal, not the eternal, perhaps when you debate others...you might actually do some good.


    We are not talking about what people think this, or any Doctrine means, James...we are talking about what the Doctrine means itself.

    You are wasting your time trying to generalize OSAS and trying to make the error people create as a defense against the Doctrine...legitimate.

    You are in error to say OSAS teaches salvation through works. Doesn't matter if some people think it does (like you do yourself), what matters is what it actually means.


    God bless.
     
  20. Darrell C

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    I would just like to point out that the argument James is making is a good example of the "Two Lips" (TULIP"S) Phenomena. One thing is taught, another is understood. One thing is said, another is meant.

    And just to clarify, this is not a thread dealing with Calv/Arm debates.

    And...a sense of humor will help you in your participation.

    ;)


    God bless.
     

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