Two of the churches "biggest problems?"

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by bridgeway, Jun 11, 2005.

  1. bridgeway

    bridgeway
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    I am the Senior pastor of a church in San Antonio who has my share of getting worn out, beaten down, etc. etc., you know what I mean. I'm not complaining. I count it all joy in the long run, as I am sure most of you here on the forum do. We serve Christ.

    This last week has been particularly troublesome, because my calling has been attacked on a really big scale. What I "do" has been attacked. But the attack is not just against me. The attack is upon you to.

    I read one of WorldNetDaily's writers assert that of the three "biggest problems of the church," paid pastors, and listening to sermons are two of them.

    Personally, I would have listed some biblically based problems, like not living according to God's word or something like that, but the man and the man's book that WorldNetDaily is promoting in full color thinks otherwise.

    You can find it here

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44308

    He says,
    "According to Rutz, Open Christianity solves the three biggest problems of the church: 'We've gotten rid of all the expensive buildings and paid pastors. Plus, you never have to listen to another sermon. This is the next step up from Protestantism.'"--Rutz

    Yes, he really did say, "problems." I was shocked, so I did a search, and found this report from cbn.com,

    "Jim promises a network of interactive fellowships meeting in homes worldwide without pastors, programs, or sermons where members will take a giant step up to a whole new level of life."

    http://www.cbn.com/700club/Guests/Bios/Jim_Rutz042805.asp

    The Bible mandates pastors and sermons as blessings and gifts for the body, and never says they are problems. God mandates paid pastors as per passages like 1 Timothy 5:13, and mandates the preaching of scripture in sermon form in 1 Timothy 4:1-4, and so many othe places.

    Anyway, in my opinion, this is a direct attack on the God ordained church and a punch in the face of every pastor that has ever existed that spends so much time serving God and people in ministry that he can not possibly get a second job.

    I worked full time planting our church, but as we grew, I simply could not tend to the flock and my family while giving up preciously needed hours for both. Maybe you can, and maybe you are. I commend you.


    I sent Rutz and Joseph Farah a list of ten questions to answer yesterday morning. Farah asked me to question Rutz on their radio show, but I missed it because of the time zone. Rutz will not answer my questions, or I guess I should say, he hasn't answered me yet.

    The reason why I am posting this is because I am hoping that something else can be done, as this book is a top seller on WorldNet, which is usually conservative and Christian oriented.

    Blessings in Christ,
    KKinchen
     
  2. StefanM

    StefanM
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    Are you sure your references are correct?
     
  3. bridgeway

    bridgeway
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  4. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
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    From my perspective 2 of the biggest problems in the church are pride and apathy.
     
  5. StefanM

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    Paid pastors are not the problem, but perhaps the clergy/laity distinction could be causing problems.

    Sermons are not inherently the cause of boredom in church. I would contend that often it is the way sermons are done. Sermons must adapt to the culture. You don't preach in a country church in Alabama in the same manner you would preach in a large cathedral in Berlin.

    Perhaps for contemporary society, the formal sermon is losing effectiveness, but there are other methods. Small groups and house church discussions can contain just as much proclaiming (preaching) of the Word without a formal sermon. In fact, I rather dislike preaching sermons; I'd rather work with a discussion group and proclaim the Word interactively.
     
  6. bridgeway

    bridgeway
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    Good to meet you PastorSBC1303

    Wow. That is a whole sermon series in one sentence!

    May I also add, unaccountablility, and the ever deadly, gossiping. They would be up there in the top something or other.

    --huge problems at bridgeway at least.

    Blessings to you in Christ,
    KKinchen
     
  7. Ulsterman

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    Two biggest problems - neither paid pastors, nor boring sermons, but apathy in the pew and "itching ears" on the Christian, both of which are predicted in the New Testament.

    This book sounds like it isn't worth the paper its printed on and the author hasn't got a clue.
     
  8. blackbird

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    Too, the two biggest problems in church----ignorance and apathy!!!

    "Who is Jesus Christ?"

    "I don't know(ignorance) and I don't care(apathy)!"

    Pride and hedonism are the parallelling brothers to ignorance and apathy!!!

    Bro. David
     
  9. StefanM

    StefanM
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    I would say two of the biggest problems in Christianity are one on each side of the spectrum.

    1. Lack of doctrinal consistency on the left

    2. Politics/in-fighting on the right
     
  10. Sounddoctrine04

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    A response to Ulsterman and his post dated June 12 @ 2:07 A.M.

    You stated: "Two biggest problems - neither paid pastors, nor boring sermons, but apathy in the pew and "itching ears" on the Christian, both of which are predicted in the New Testament."

    In my opinion, the problem can be found BOTH behind the pulpit and in the pew. John Wesley said to preachers to "Put fire in your sermons or put your sermons in the fire." Everything still does repoduce after its kind. The noodle-spined, effiminent, wishy-washy pastors speaking from the average pulpit nowadays breeds the same in the pew. When a ministerial student asked C.H. Spurgeon how to keep a person in the pew awake, Spurgeon replied "Wake up the preacher!"

    On the other hand, the daily walk of the Christian (and I am speaking of genuine Christians, not false Christians) has become so worldly that they definitely don't want to be preached to...but simply scratch their ears with TEACHING:
    2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    Lack of Holy Spirit fire in the pulpit, and lack of Holy Spirit living in the pew -- a deadly combination to a church.
     
  11. John Ellwood Taylor

    John Ellwood Taylor
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    Might I suggest the problem might be too many ungifted pastors offering up poor excuses for sermons?

    I think too many men find themselves behind a pulpit that have no business being there: neither the gifting or the apparent effort to rightly handle God's Word.

    Find a church where the is a gifted and trained expositor giving the sermon and you will realize it's not the paid preacher or the sermon that's the problem.
     
  12. Kiffen

    Kiffen
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    I read part of Rutz's book years ago. It's in my library. There is some good stuff in it BUT mainly it's watered down Christianity not worth 2 cents of your money.
     
  13. msinave

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    Hmmm, two biggest problems in the church? Male sinners and female sinners?
     
  14. TexasSky

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    My two cents:

    The biggets problems are:
    1- apathy from Christians and
    2 - lack-of-apathy from the non-Christians who want a social club instead of a bible-believing-Church.

    The only people I've run across, so far, who are into the "don't pay them," and "get rid of sermons" and such theories are very young, and tend to be young people who resent the authority of the elder / senior pastors. I'm not saying everyone with that view is like that, but the ones I've run into are.
     
  15. USN2Pulpit

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    Interesting, Texas. Most of the young adults in the congregation are really into the message, and it's a few of the older folk that are looking at their watches during the sermon.

    Just goes to show that people are different and churches are different.
     
  16. TexasSky

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    USN -

    Oh, the young people who do the complaining around me are into the message, and are very active in the church. They also are the ones that object the most to not having a "bigger voice" in the church.

    Some of them are young deacons, some of them are ministerial students.

    It isn't that they don't care.
    It is mroe that they are so excited about getting things done, that they all have their own ideas about how it should be done, and when they hit the roadblock of "organization" and "authority" they cry out, "That's not biblical."
     
  17. D Curlee...

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    Texas, et al,

    I think the point is being missed. Rather than talking about what we think the 2 biggest problems in the church are, I'm concerned about what we are going to do about it???

    Texas, you use the word "deacons" in your last post. Why? According to Rutz that is just another pagan title. For you to adhere to such a title and teaching is pagan. And the leaders of your church who support deacons and elders are pagan as well. How does that sit with you? I don't know about you, but it offends me.

    And what about those of you who teach or listen to sermons? Are you a teacher of paganism (pastors) or a follower of pagan teachings (congregation)? I mean, really, does this offend anyone besides me?

    Listen, this is a man who is actively seeking to pull people from sound doctrine and induct them into myths. Are we not warned about this in Scripture? If so, what are we told to do?

    (2 Tim. 4)

    Wait a minute! Preach the word? Oh no, no, no, no, Paul. That would be some sort of a sermon, yes? That's paganism. We can't do that. Teach and defend sound doctrine??? Oh no, no, no, no, Paul. That would mean teaching, i.e. sermons. Sermons are paganism. More, to do so would be to take on the role of pastor. There are no such things. Scripture NOWHERE teaches this, according to Prophet Rutz.

    Kerry, I stand with you. I understand that we MUST do something about this. I'm sending e-mails. I'm calling people. I'm willing to do whatever I can in any situation that God brings my/our way.

    So, rather than us talk about what the 2 or 3 biggest problems are (which are great to discuss and prompt action on in another thread), let's talk about what we can DO in this particular situation.

    In Christ,

    Dustin...
     
  18. bridgeway

    bridgeway
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    Well in his latest salvo against God's churches, God's pastors, and God's sermons, entitled condescendingly, "Freedom Comes to Christianity at Last," Rutz now says that sermons are pagan!

    Yep, you preach sermons, well you are doing something pagan--not Christian. Is there no stopping this maverick's influence?

    Rutz says--
    ((Welcome to the new Christianity What? You say you kind of liked the old Christianity? Well, if you did, you'll love the new one.))

    Remember, Rutz says sermons are pagan, and pastors are not needed. See my original post that started this thread for what Rutz says are the three biggest problems of God's church.

    Rutz continues--
    ((It's got exactly the same set of beliefs, but a structure and dynamic that are poles apart from tradition-encrusted Churchianity, whose tacked-on flaws can be seen from orbiting spacecraft.))

    Colorful. But notice the strawman in the ad hominem. Biblical Pastors and sermons are what Rutz means by "the tacked on flaws."

    Rutz continues--
    ((It also has some improvements: no sermons, no expensive buildings, and no sitting in silence because of your second-class status. Sound heretical? Then please note that all these practices are imports from the ancient pagan world, [sic] and none of them are recommended or even mentioned in the New Testament. Not once. [sic] So who's the heretic here?))

    Amazing. So when Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, he was importing from the pagan world? Rutz's sophistry is self condemning, and so bizarre that one is left wondering how WorldNetDaily (Joseph Farah) became so enamored with him. Rutz denies that any of the things he mentions are in the New Testament. Which leads to a pertinent observation; notice the absence of scripture in his articles! Where is the scripture? That is the big point here.

    Oh by the way, the answer to Rutz's question above is, Rutz.

    Blessings to you in Christ,
    Pastor KKinchen
     
  19. bridgeway

    bridgeway
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  20. AF Guy N Paradise

    AF Guy N Paradise
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    Bridgeway, I sent you a pm. I am close to relocating to San Antonio (Randolph AFB).

    My opinion regarding problems in the church is one simple word that overlaps everything else mentioned and then some:

    SELFISHNESS
     

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