Two Salvations?

Six Pages already?!! Wow!

I want to discuss with you about salvation doctrine issue, but not right now, I need go to sleep, get ready go to work 3rd shift. I promise, I will make post to discuss on this on Sunday when I am free.

Early in my Christian life, I used to believe in unconditional security salvation - so called, 'Once Saved Always Saved'(OSAS), as what baptist churches teaching on it. I thought it is a truth doctrine.

Till I look at Matt. 25:30, it bothers me lot for 3 years, finally, I determined left unconditional security salvation doctrine - baptist's doctrine for good. Because I can easily see conditional with warnings in so many passages in the Bible. For example - take the mark of the beast of Revelation chapter 13 and 14, or worshipping the beast, shall be cast away into everlasting fire, obivously, it is conditional with warning.

That why, I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

Later this weekend, I will discuss more with verses on salvation issues.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Now you're getting it!
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God's children,
Rom 8:17 and if children, also heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--seeing that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

NOTE: It doesn't say IF we suffer with Him...if we are in Christ we DO suffer with Him.

?
Both. Try it sometimes.

I like what Albert Barnes says in regards to 2 Peter 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him - The meaning is, that the members will be treated as the Head is. We become united with him by faith, and, if we share his treatment on earth, we shall share his triumphs in heaven.

Following man will do that to you every time...

 

So,
2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Really says
12 Since we suffer, we shall also reign with him: Since we deny him, he also will deny us:
That makes me feel a lot better, and I know it should you as well.

 

I'll never catch up on this thread, for I don't have the time, but unless you are saying that Hizzoner, the Mayor, was righteous up until he was 'yanked out of Dodge', and then was no longer righteous, Scripture says this:

Seems pretty clear to me! Yep! Why?

It ain't conditional, based on what we do, folks! Thank God for mercy, love, and grace!
FTR, Lot was a believer before Abraham. (Compare Gen. 14:12; 15:6; II Peter 2:8.)

I am glad this says we "should walk" in the good works, rather than "will walk" in good works, for otherwise, I could never know how much is enough, or if I am walking close enough. This is, BTW, one error of both the theological systems of "Calvinism" and "Arminianism", as it robs one from his or her assurance of salvation, for one can never know, according to either, contrary to I John 5:10-13!

Ed

 

'Squawk' forum?? Or is that supposed to be 'Polly Parrot' forum?? :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Ed,

So Lot was still righteous when he got drunk and slept with his daughters?

Ya know, I can't find one scripture verse that says one who is clothed in Christ's righteousness is allowed to do such.

And yes, Lacy and James, the Word of God says all who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. If one claims to be of Christ and never is persecuted because of Christ, then according to that verse, the person is not living a godly life in Christ Jesus.

 

Nothing like a little "perseverance" from either side to turn attention from the question at hand.

Ed

 

Man this thread really got away from me. So I'm not going to bother posting on some of the issues bought up, but wanted to comment on this one.

That's EXACTLY what we have been trying to say. If you are living a Godly life and standing up for the Word of God in the True sense you are going to be persecuted. And if you are not experiencing some sort of suffering then you are not walking by the Spirit in the way you are supposed to.

That doesn't mean you are not saved, that just means you are not living a Godly life. Not all Christians live Godly lives. And that means that they aren't going to be suffering, which means they aren't going to reign in the kingdom either.

To say that ALL Christians live Godly lives is to speak outside of Scripture.

 

Actually, your argument is with God, the Holy Spirit, and the authors of Scripture, not me. I am not the one that said Lot was righteous, much less identified him as 'godly', in the first place, I merely believe it, because God said it. AND I don't see that God ever revoked that pronouncement in Scripture. For that matter, do you see where God grades on the curve, at all? If so, where? And according to Scripture's own declaration, Paul said that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I AM chief", it seems to me that all the rest fall? short of that level. We are back to the old question of, "At what point does one decide that someone else has too many sins, for thenm to really be saved? I suggest this is seemingly a wee bit of the mote vs. beam syndrome at work.

Church time. Bye!

Ed

 

I believe that all this talk about "two salvations" is nothing less than heresy. Did Jesus ever preach two salvations? No. Jesus said:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.


He also said:

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


What's been argued here as the tougher requirements for entrance into the Millenial Kingdom than the requirement for entering Heaven is in reality the requirement for eternal salvation. Period. Don't like the reference to following Christ as Lord? Sorry, that's the Biblical standard.

 

He didn't have to because the folks here was preaching to had already had their eternal destiny secured. He was preaching to spiritually alive folks, not spiritually dead folks. That's why He didn't preach the message of grace, but preached the message of the kingdom.

That's about a clear cut a works based salvation as you can get. If you want to trust in yourself for eternal salvation then so be it, but it's outside of Scripture as Scripture says we are to trust in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God and that ALONE for our eternal salvation. Anything added or taken away from that is outside Scripture.

 

Since the Word Christian means 'Christ-like', I would say all Christians do indeed live godly lives. Didn't Christ Himself? or was He worldly?

And again, I see no Scripture saying those who are Christians won't rule and reign with Him.

Maybe you are looking at the word 'Christian' in the way the world looks at the word. A great percentage of the world claims to be Christian just because they had grandparents who were Christian, or because they donate money to a Christian orginazation, or some other reason other than they placed their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet.
We should define suffering in the context of suffering from the 1000 yr passage...
Revelation 20:3-5
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.


It seems that one has to be beheaded to qualify to be a ruler.

It was asked back there somewhere who would we rule and reign?
What about the children born during the 7 yrs. Where will they go? into the kingdom, or Hell?

If the kingdom, will they be able to reproduce?
If so.... bingo, you have the subjects

 

That's simple, if a person truly believes they will endure.
The Holy Spirit seals us, and provides the endurance.

We are created a new creature...We are. I just got through reading some pamphlets that J.Jump pmed me, and in one of them it said that since the Jews rejected Christ as king, God created a new creature..

The church is not a new creature, each Christian is.
And as a new creature, I will act like a new creature.

A dog acts like a dog, a cow acts like a cow, a Christian acts like a Christian.

If a dog meows it is not a dog, if a cow lays eggs it is not a cow, and if a Christian doesn't act like a Christian, they are not a Christian.

Granted, A christian can goof up, but to live in unrepentant sin is impossible if a person is truly saved.